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Jason Shadow wrote:

Quote:

I like it, though the Island of Leisure seems like it would rarely ever come in gameplay. It's not on any maps, so no one ever goes there, so there's probably not going to be anything plot relevant. It could be a nice place for your party to chill at, but it's so out of the way that it wouldn't make sense to get all the way there (you would have to charter a boat just for yourself, though assuming you're that rich it shouldn't be an issue). Maybe offer an alternative as like, a mansion in Manehattan or any town the player chooses, or maybe even a home in every town.

One thing about Destinies is that they're like super-cool utility talents. That means they need to have specific benefits, unlike boons, to give the players a good idea of exactly how they help the character (otherwise, player abilities become a bit unbalanced compare to one another). For an example, check out the, “Into the Mare-Cave” feature of the draft I did of Demonu’s excellent Master Detective concept. It has all the flavor of a boon, but it says exactly how the laboratory benefits you in terms of gameplay – like a utility talent.

If we add those specific benefits to the above Tycoon level 10 features, that'll go a long way to making it work.

Also, I'm tempted to steal the Tycoon level 4 feature for the Treasure-Hunter Destiny in development.

I'm not sure why you guys think it's that bad. It's not like the Weather Weaver doesn't likely lose in any confrontation with Dragon for a pet guy or Mr. Scary. Can't hide from the Detective either. And it's not like they can really kill people with it. It's a 10 mile area in 3 hours. If you can't get out of there in time, you wouldn't if you had a day. And even if they did the Immortal Healing Machine could just bring back anyone who managed to die by sitting around and going "no, I refuse to leave my front porch despite the clearly imminent flood!" And of course the Shield could just flat out block it (I can't imagine a PH ruling otherwise) while simultaneously defending the city from an invasion. At the most damaging it's confusing, a good defense, threat, or does a lot of property damage. The Dragon pet can be all of those things and kill a lot of people all at the same time (I guess people would stop being confused after a while)

That's a faulty way of thinking. Destinies aren't measured in power by stacking them up against each other but on their own merit. You know what a 10 by 10 miles area is? About as big as Washington D.C. And you're thinking small scale there. Creating an earthquake that size is going to have way more repercussions that won't be contained inside that area. Or creating a tsunami in that area off the coast and then letting it hit the land. Instant destruction without the 3 hour time period given to evacuate.

And no, the Healer isn't able to bring those ponies back. They have to die of unnatural causes and with Green Pony, they die of natural causes because earthquakes and the like are natural disasters.

No idea where you got the idea it was permanent either.

This here little line

do not need to expend your daily use of this feature every day to maintain the current effect.

Also, once you've altered the landscape by means of overgrowing a forest, causing damage with earthquakes or shooting fiery balls of doom out of a volcano, I doubt all the consequences of such acts would just reset back to the status quo.

As for being more powerful than Celestia or Luna....lol! Yeah, controlling a 10 mile area is stronger than controlling day or night for an entire world. As far as we know Celestia can just choose to turn the sun up to 11 and burn everyone to cinders. Even if not, she's an alicorn and I would be shocked if she couldn't conjure up a badass magical or weather effect capable of leveling cities if she really wanted to

Celestia raises the sun but I doubt she controls the chemical reactions within it that causes it to radiate light and heat.
And yes, alicorns are the closest thing the show has to any physical god but so far, Celestia's track record isn't so good:
- needed the Element of Harmony to imprison Nightmare Moon
- near powerless against Discord
- defeated by Chrysalis and a corrupted version of the Power of Love

The only thing we know that she handled that somepony else couldn't was the Parasprite investation in Phillydelphia. Even so, I don't think Celestia or Luna is capable of creating the same tornado that took all of Ponyville's Pegasi. And Green Pony can create a 10 by 10 miles large version of that tornado.


@ Stairc:

If you're content with the last version of Detective currently up in this thread, then feel free to add it to the list of Destinies.

To edit the lv 10 Green Pony destiny...

I believe a good thing to edit it is to give that pony a green hoof. With a 1 minute prep time and magic point , they are able to grow almost any plant in a way to benefit them. For example, a patch of Poison Joke underneath an enemy group, or a series of Vines that crack the bars of a cell to allow a group to escape. I'm not sure if this is lv 10 enough, but ANY plant, even a redwood tree the size of Canterlot Castle?

That's a faulty way of thinking. Destinies aren't measured in power by stacking them up against each other but on their own merit.

Well, yes and no. You do need to balance destinies against one another, certainly, but an argument about how one level 10 character might be able to lessen the damage another level 10 character can do is, of course, not solid.

And no, the Healer isn't able to bring those ponies back. They have to die of unnatural causes and with Green Pony, they die of natural causes because earthquakes and the like are natural disasters.

I’d say that’s kind of semantics. Naturally-occurring poisons or being killed by a natural animal aren’t what ‘natural causes’ means in this context. Basically, if you don’t die of old age or some genetic disease, the healer can resurrect you. Maybe I should specify that.
That said, I agree that as-written, the Green Pony destiny feature is by far the most open to gray area and abuse by players. Heck, my min-maxing self would play a level 10 character in a level 10 campaign with just that feature and nothing else, no talents or racial abilities… And giddily so. I’d enjoy burying enemy fortresses in earthquakes, creating dense forests to wall off armies or overgro enemy camps, crushing port cities with tsunamis and generally causing mayhem.

Now, that would be wicked fun. However, if a feature is so attractive and powerful that is calls to the min/maxer in me as much or more than all the other level-up features in the system combined (including other level 10 destiny features)… That’s a good indication of a balance problem.

It’s also a good indication that the concept for the feature is wicked, crazy awesome. If we can capture the flavor of that without it breaking everything… Then it might be one of the coolest destiny features around. And that’s something worth working on.

It’s important to remember that the only objections to the green pony feature are the balance issues and potential to break adventures. The attractions of it are the sheer unadulterated awesomeness. Let’s see if we can capture a lot of the awesomeness without causing concern balance-wise. I think it can probably be done.

@ Stairc: If you're content with the last version of Detective currently up in this thread, then feel free to add it to the list of Destinies.

Cool. Are you sure? If it’s not ideal for you yet, let me know – I’d love to get this sweet concept of yours perfect.

Ah, well, I had meant for the effects to be contained within the area of it. I certainly didn't mean to leave gray areas for it to cause effects elsewhere based on its effects in the area. I'm not really sure how we keep the flavor of what it can do while powering it down without limiting the options to specific things and that would be lame. Like, how do you leave in the ability to have a wall of wind surround a place but remove the possibility for it to just be a hurricane? Or the ability to be that guy who built an ice palace in the middle of a desert without being able to level towns with earthquakes. I guess you could specifically prohibit it from being things that directly cause damage but allow indirect damage? Like say making lava moats. Though then you could still put your lava on a hill and otherwise cause it to slide down onto a town. Though I suppose you'd have already spent three hours and a magic point and would have to use other means to move the lava. Or we could say that the effects and results of it are contained to the initial designated area.

Does anyone have a suggestion for how to re-word it that way?

Cool. Are you sure? If it’s not ideal for you yet, let me know – I’d love to get this sweet concept of yours perfect.

Pretty much.

To the Mare-cave! is an improvement over the original concept of Forensic Lab by allowing you to have 2 chances to figure something out (because you can always screw up a single roll) and that it also allows you to find information regarding characters, something that every detective interacts with and that I forgot to implement.

Elementary, my dear Trotson allows for some grey areas but this inspires creativity as well. That aside, I'm fairly confident that those who take the Detective destiny are going to use it as flavourful as intended rather than a tool for meta-gaming. The only difference I would make is to bump it up from 1/gaming session to 2/gaming session but again, I have no regards in balancing issues in the grand scheme of things.

Lie to me is also pretty much polished to perfection. The usage of OOC knowledge is cleverly implemented without Fracture the Fourth Wall being a necessity and being able to discern lies from truth is every detective's bread and butter. One last thing though: could this also apply to false objects when you actively look at them? Such as figuring out wether or not the crown jewels are replicas and the real ones are stolen or something like that.
(this also mean that any Changeling encountered is going to have its biggest advantage taken away)

When you have looked over those 2 issues, you have my permission to post it.

Spoiler:

I've given my 2 cents on the Green Pony concept. I'll refrain from doing so until a new version of it comes around.

Excellent. I'll include the Master Detective destiny then... And may I say Demonu, it's one of my favorites thus far. Thanks for the great concepts and development.

Does anyone have a suggestion for how to re-word it that way?

There are a few ways to solve the problems off the top of my head. I don’t love any of these ideas yet, but they might help get you thinking.

1) Increase the casting time to ridiculous amounts. Instead of hours, make it days, months or even years. This makes the ability cool flavor-wise and good for roleplaying, but it makes the ability impractical to use in the course of an adventure.

2) Force a huge karmic punishment on the player if the effects of this change kill anyone. Such as losing all use of the Destiny features for a year and a day.

3) Make the frequency with which this god-like ability can be used incredibly low. 1/Year for example.

A note on the detective destiny.. I'm really not sure about the OOC knowledge. It seems to me that it really doesn't belong, and that fourth wall breaking should have it's own place separate from all others. On that note...


Since the idea has been toyed with, here's a quick draft of a possible Fourth Wall destiny.

Fourth Wall Observer
Aside Glance Once per Session
You've developed a most peculiar habit. Every once in awhile, usually when something odd or humorous happens, you glance over your shoulder in a knowing fashion, a slight smug grin adorning your face. Most ponies never notice it, and those who do can't really comprehend it. Who exactly are you looking at anyway? Even you're not really sure, but you know somepony, or something is receiving your looks. Sometimes, you can even sense some sort of response. Take one piece of out of character knowledge, whether it be something about the game, the MLP Universe, or even something completely unrelated, and make it permanently in character knowledge for you alone.
Additionally, for some reason you don't quite understand, you occasionally refer to things such as towns and cities as their namesakes. For example, you might slip out a "Camelot" when trying to mention Canterlot.

Medium Awareness
You don't actually control your own actions, the player does. Except, you are the player, aren't you? Are you and he or she one and the same? Confusing, isn't it? You haven't fully figured everything out, but it's all starting to come together. You're not exactly real, then again who's to say what's real and what's not? You're a character someone made to play something called a role playing game, isn't that interesting? Kind of distressing too if you think about it. You try not to think about it too much. You've started to recognize that all the things you and your companions do aren't really determined by their own skills. It helps, but it really all comes down to the player's dice. While any player is considering a skill check which you are aware of, you can identify the DC required for it, whatever that means. You also have the ability to stop time, so to speak. You can't do anything while time is stopped, but it gives the player some time to think. Find yourself in a tricky conversation or sticky situation and need a plan fast? Not to worry, you can stop time down here, and the player can have as much time as he wants to think it out up there.
You've also developed a couple new verbal habits. For one, sometimes you accidentally refer to player characters as the name of the actual player, and sometimes when introducing yourself you even use your own player's name before correcting yourself. If you're savvy enough, you might also speak in tropes occasionally, like referring to that magical artifact your party has been after all this time as the MacGuffin. Most ponies say Celestia's or Luna's name in vain when frustrated. You on the other hand say the DM's name in vain.

The Fourth Wall
Unfortunately, no pony can be told what the Fourth Wall is. You have to see it for yourself. You've become fully aware of the other side. You almost feel like you've been there. You're aware of the TV show, of Pony Tales: Aspirations of Harmony, and the true nature of your reality. But hey, wso what? If you're made up, why not enjoy life anyway? Out-of-character knowledge and in-character knowledge are one and the same, and you may communicate with any of the other player characters regardless of how close they are to you in game, though they can't necessarily talk back unless you want them to. Your Aside Glance now allows you to bestow out-of-character knowledge on another character, NPC or otherwise. Whenever you meet somepony new, you can ask the DM if they're relevant to the central plot.
Now that you've learned the true meaning of the Fourth Wall, your verbal tendencies make much more sense to yourself at least. You still slip out the wrong words from time to time, but at least you know what they mean.

A note on the detective destiny.. I'm really not sure about the OOC knowledge. It seems to me that it really doesn't belong, and that fourth wall breaking should have it's own place separate from all others.

That could be flavoured as the detective thinking and analyzing things on a different level. After all, in every detective show/movie, no one (usually) knows what's going on until the detective makes his grand reveal. Or alternatively, it could be interpreted that the detective is a tad mad. Brilliant but mad. I mean, take Sherlock Holmes for instance. That man has done things that no reasonable or sane man would think of or even try out.

I think it definitely works flavorwise with the Master Detective destiny. However, the Maretrix destiny concept is simply hilarious.

I'm torn.

Demonu wrote:

A note on the detective destiny.. I'm really not sure about the OOC knowledge. It seems to me that it really doesn't belong, and that fourth wall breaking should have it's own place separate from all others.

That could be flavoured as the detective thinking and analyzing things on a different level. After all, in every detective show/movie, no one (usually) knows what's going on until the detective makes his grand reveal. Or alternatively, it could be interpreted that the detective is a tad mad. Brilliant but mad. I mean, take Sherlock Holmes for instance. That man has done things that no reasonable or sane man would think of or even try out.

Maybe limit it to in-game knowledge you know but your character wouldn't. It just seems to me like going down the detective path shouldn't make you automatically savvy to the fact that you're in a Pony Tales game and such.

Maybe limit it to in-game knowledge you know but your character wouldn't. It just seems to me like going down the detective path shouldn't make you automatically savvy to the fact that you're in a Pony Tales game and such.

That makes a lot of sense, and it's sort of what I had in mind to begin with too. It's not supposed to give you knowledge you're in a game, rather if you know another player has been kidnapped but your character wouldn't know yet - your character can pick up on this immediately.

Watch This If You Haven't Already
Enter the Maretrix

threezeus wrote:

Demonu wrote:

A note on the detective destiny.. I'm really not sure about the OOC knowledge. It seems to me that it really doesn't belong, and that fourth wall breaking should have it's own place separate from all others.

That could be flavoured as the detective thinking and analyzing things on a different level. After all, in every detective show/movie, no one (usually) knows what's going on until the detective makes his grand reveal. Or alternatively, it could be interpreted that the detective is a tad mad. Brilliant but mad. I mean, take Sherlock Holmes for instance. That man has done things that no reasonable or sane man would think of or even try out.

Maybe limit it to in-game knowledge you know but your character wouldn't. It just seems to me like going down the detective path shouldn't make you automatically savvy to the fact that you're in a Pony Tales game and such.

Only OOC knowledge related to the plot/adventure, NPC's and PC's and not the actual nature of the game was what I intended but I can see why it should be worded differently as to not encompass all Fourth Wall related knowledge.

So yeah, I'm cool with that.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:

Maybe limit it to in-game knowledge you know but your character wouldn't. It just seems to me like going down the detective path shouldn't make you automatically savvy to the fact that you're in a Pony Tales game and such.

That makes a lot of sense, and it's sort of what I had in mind to begin with too. It's not supposed to give you knowledge you're in a game, rather if you know another player has been kidnapped but your character wouldn't know yet - your character can pick up on this immediately.

Watch This If You Haven't Already
Enter the Maretrix

Cool. It should probably just be clarified like Demonu said, just to avoid confusion.
And yeah, I've seen that, but I watched it again. Love it every time. In case my avatar didn't give it away, I love Matrix/MLP crossovers.

On a related note.

threezeus wrote:
Fourth Wall Observer

Spoiler:

Since it's pretty latent with flavor, here's a simplification to just the effects just to make sure what I wrote is clear.

Aside Glance 1/Session
-Make one piece of out-of-character knowledge in-character knowledge. This can be anything, but try to make it a specific piece of knowledge.

Medium Awareness
-Identify DC's for any skill check you're aware of.
-The ability to take as much time as you want to consider a situation. Maybe a time limit should be put on this one though.

Fourth Wall
-ALL OOC knowledge becomes IC knowledge.
-Communicate with other PCs regardless of location.
-Aside Glance now lets you give other ponies pieces of OOC knowledge.
-Instantly know if an NPC is plot relevant.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote: If we add those specific benefits to the above Tycoon level 10 features, that'll go a long way to making it work.

Also, I'm tempted to steal the Tycoon level 4 feature for the Treasure-Hunter Destiny in development.

Feel free to dismantle and repurpose Tycoon as you see fit. I'm not particularly attached to it anyway.

Jason Shadow wrote:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote: If we add those specific benefits to the above Tycoon level 10 features, that'll go a long way to making it work.

Also, I'm tempted to steal the Tycoon level 4 feature for the Treasure-Hunter Destiny in development.

Feel free to dismantle and repurpose Tycoon as you see fit. I'm not particularly attached to it anyway.

Good man.

Here's some concepts I'm playing with right now too.

Spoiler:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
There are a few ways to solve the problems off the top of my head. I don’t love any of these ideas yet, but they might help get you thinking.

1) Increase the casting time to ridiculous amounts. Instead of hours, make it days, months or even years. This makes the ability cool flavor-wise and good for roleplaying, but it makes the ability impractical to use in the course of an adventure.

2) Force a huge karmic punishment on the player if the effects of this change kill anyone. Such as losing all use of the Destiny features for a year and a day.

3) Make the frequency with which this god-like ability can be used incredibly low. 1/Year for example.

Were those supposed to be joke answers? Certainly made me laugh.

Month or year long casting time/times per use are like saying you don't have it. It will almost never come up in play and anything you wanted it to do you could have done a hundred times via other methods in that time.

The karmic punishment is worthless, not just for this feature but, for all features. In any game where you would want to do bad things with a feature the PH would be forced to nix the punishment or not doing so basically nixing that feature.

I was looking for something reasonable that would limit the things people are worried about, primarily direct damaging effects without having to further increase to cost/infrequency of the feature. In fact, all I'm really looking for is someone to re-word it to say you can't directly do damage with it and that its effects don't butterfly effect out of the designated area. Once that's established I think it would be hard to argue it as overpowered. Could probably even drop the MP cost.

Edit: Sounded rude. sorry.
Still think you should lessen the area a bit if you want to keep the full extent of the powers themselves, or raise the casting time.

10 miles is not that big of an area. Shield already has an ability that covers a city. Los Angeles is 502.693 square miles, New York is 468.48, Chicago is 234.0, even the city I live in, Santa Cruz is 15.828 square miles. I think 10 miles will do fine. Otherwise the ability might as well be "dress up just your own house in X-mas lights and fake snow". And seriously Weather Crafting can easily cause effects with a mile of effect. It's not like a storm or a blasting winds are going be contained into a 50foot square or something. You're basically saying you want a capstone ability to be weaker in almost every way than a racial feature Pegasi just start with.

Ramsus wrote:
Were those supposed to be joke answers? Certainly made me laugh.

Glad to entertain you.

Ramsus wrote:Month or year long casting time/times per use are like saying you don't have it. It will almost never come up in play and anything you wanted it to do you could have done a hundred times via other methods in that time.

Yes. But it serves the flavor of the power. Players will like the idea that they can have such god-like powers and it won't interfere with the actual adventures.

Ramsus wrote:The karmic punishment is worthless, not just for this feature but, for all features. In any game where you would want to do bad things with a feature the PH would be forced to nix the punishment or not doing so basically nixing that feature.

We best get rid of Pinkie Promise then. Too bad it's a popular utility.

This is a simple concept Ramsus. If you cannot figure out a way to word the power in a way that makes sense or isn't hopelessly prone to abuse - you can simply create a punishment for doing the things with the power you don't want players to do. Having the option of being able to do those cool things is also nice, players like to know they *could* level a town... Even if they're not going to due to the cosmic retribution.

Ramsus wrote:I was looking for something reasonable that would limit the things people are worried about, primarily direct damaging effects without having to further increase to cost/infrequency of the feature.

A way to balance such a feature would indeed be to make it so that it can be used only once every great while - so players carefully consider when they want to use it... And it doesn't seem unfair compared to the other level 10 features. Being able to constantly detect lies or being able to god-mod 10 miles once a year? It's hard to determine which is better, so it might work well.

Ramsus wrote:In fact, all I'm really looking for is someone to re-word it to say you can't directly do damage with it.

Ah. Well then, how about making it so if they kill someone with it, they lose their destiny features for a year and a day?

So, you didn't like my Knighthood destiny, Stairc?

I have heard and am considering Ramsus's ideas about my destinies. Would anybody else be willing to give me opinions on what to change and not chagne and things like that? Especially Knighthood and Audiencemancer, now that I apparently have competition.

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:So, you didn't like my Knighthood destiny, Stairc?

I have heard and am considering Ramsus's ideas about my destinies. Would anybody else be willing to give me opinions on what to change and not chagne and things like that? Especially Knighthood and Audiencemancer, now that I apparently have competition.

I think I missed your Knighthood destiny altogether.

Heh, alright then. Let's see here...

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:I'm not too sure about my ability to create balanced "powers", but I'll give it a shot...and I'm pretty sure I can at least create some intriguing destinies. From what I hear they're supposed to not be combat-oriented? Well, this first one I'm about to throw at you sounds like it will be at first, but...

Knighthood

A knight's duty is to protect and serve, much like the Living Bulwark. Unlike the Living Bulwark, though, the Knight believes the best defense is a strong offense - and knows how to utilize this philosophy to the fullest. Knights are driven by a sense of justice and responsibility - not always a perfect sense, of course, but they do try. Knights do not need to join any military organization, though they often do anyway. The most spectacular ones, though, tend to work on their own for some reason.

Examples of those following the path of Knighthood include Dave Strider, Spider-Man, and Rainbow Dash.

A knight's powers include:
Danger Sense
Knights may not realize it consciously, but their experience dealing with the forces of evil have given them a crash course in where that evil dwells. When confronted with somepony (or somedragon or somegriffin, etc.) who wishes you or one or more of your allies harm but is attempting to hide the fact, you may automatically make a Perception check to attempt to uncover this fact with a +15 bonus.

Self-Sacrifice Daily Reaction: One of your allies is hurt outside of battle.
Knights always put others ahead of themselves, even to the point of facing danger for others. You may choose to take damage instead of your ally. You may be knocked unconscious or be defeated as a result of this damage, but you cannot die as a result of it. Any (save ends) conditions dealt as a result of the attack, including damage, is entirely nullified.

Save the Day
Whenever a neutral or friendly being within one mile is in danger, you are made aware of the general circumstances of the danger (when, where, why, how) through one of various methods: town crier, reading weather patterns, or just a general feeling that "something is wrong", etc. If you would normally be unable to get to the site of the danger, in time or at all, circumstances in your general area are changed to give you a very good chance of reaching the site in time.

Spoiler:

There we are, underlined, bolded, and italicized.