Harminous Element

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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:48 pm

Whiteeyes wrote:It's a nice idea, but I'm going to need to see some practical examples before I can really add in my two cents.

I thought I would have to get some examples down before getting feedback or ideas...
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Whiteeyes on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:53 pm

Well yeah kinda. It's a bit hard to give feedback beyond "this sounds like a neat idea, how does it work?"
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:55 pm

Whiteeyes wrote:Well yeah kinda. It's a bit hard to give feedback beyond "this sounds like a neat idea, how does it work?"

Doesn't the document explain it?
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Nehiel Mori on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:22 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:No problem. I'll run it by them sometime this week, when we get that fabled free Razz moment. =)

*appears in a poof of green and black smoke*

I, for one, think this is a excellent idea.
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  LoganAura on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:26 pm

The doc has the general idea, but I can't wait for the actual abilities o3o I can't think of many.

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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:55 pm

Nehiel Mori wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:No problem. I'll run it by them sometime this week, when we get that fabled free Razz moment. =)

*appears in a poof of green and black smoke*

I, for one, think this is a excellent idea.

The official reviewer idea, right? Glad you like it!

LoganAura wrote:The doc has the general idea, but I can't wait for the actual abilities o3o I can't think of many.

Yes... that, admittedly has been my problem as well...
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  LoganAura on Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:16 pm

Well, something easy to make Kindness, and Honesty stronger is to raise the number of targets, and possibly for generosity spreading out the bonus so instead of 15 to 1 it's 8 to 2, 6 to 3, etc etc etc. If Loyalty gets nerfed to 1 target, then that can also work with the first prospective idea, Magic's ability can last longer, and Laughter could develop things like Roll Xd100 and pick which to use.

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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Philadelphus on Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:49 pm

Oh, neat idea. Glad to see I'm inspirational. Very Happy I thought it'd be cool to do something similar to my talent specialization with the Elements of Harmony, but realized that could be large enough of an undertaking to leave to a separate system. Nice to see someone picked up on it.

One idea: rather than simply increasing or improving the bonus or effect from the Elements of Harmony, try coming up with alternate abilities. An idea I had that might fit in with this theme is some stuff to help with the assist mechanic specific to each element. (I apologize if any of this is unclear, I'm coming down with a cold and suspect I may not be 100% all there as I type this.)

Loyalty: You may roll twice when making an assist roll, and may take the higher number.
Laughter: Flip a coin when making an assist roll. If you get heads and succeed in assisting, provide an additional +3 to your bonus. If you both fail in assisting and get tails, give a +1 bonus as compensation.
Generosity: If you roll a 5 or lower when making an assist roll, you may provide a bonus equal to the number you rolled.
Honesty: Gain a permanent +3 bonus to assist rolls you make.
Kindness: Gain a permanent +2 bonus to your assists.
Magic: You may pick one of the above abilities to take.

These are just some ideas, they could definitely use some balancing, but perhaps they'll help jumpstart people's thought processes on ways to improve the EoH.
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:53 pm

Philadelphus wrote:try coming up with alternate abilities.

Well actually, that's one of the things mentioned in the document.

Still, thanks for the suggestions!
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:33 pm

I now have examples for each type of bonus for each element!
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Philadelphus on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:29 am

Ooh, nice. Most of those bonuses look pretty good, though I'm too tired at the moment for a full analysis. The only one that caught my eye at first glance as being potentially problematic was the Passive for Laughter:

[7] Passive, Unique - Whenever an ally succeeds in a skill check, grant them a +1 morale bonus to all checks until the end of the day. This bonus stacks.
Since succeeding in skill checks happens pretty often, and getting a +1 bonus makes it more likely to happen, this has the potential to very rapidly become a positive feedback loop, where players succeed in a check, get a +1 bonus, succeed in another check, getting a +2 bonus, going up and up ad infinitum until the end of the day. Especially in a party of 5 or more players, there are going to be a lot of skill checks passed. Perhaps change it to "whenever an ally rolls a natural 20 on a skill check"? That way it can't become a positive feedback loop (since a bonus to skill checks doesn't change the actual value of the rolled dice), and you most likely won't have ponies running around in the evening with +40 bonuses to their skill checks.
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:32 am

The problem then, as is often the case, is that players can just keep doing random skill checks until they get nat 20s over and over and over agian.

"I try to convince that mare that the sky is green... No good? Okay... That one... And then that one..."

(200 ponies later)

"Hell yeah, 10 nat 20s!"
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:22 am

I think for that one, the GM will probably stop people from doing that...

Through I might make it during a session, not day... hmmmm
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Grey Pen The Flawed on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:42 am

TOn Laughter: There is already an option for rolling multiple results, and choosing the best one... First off, does the GM inform the player what the rolls mean? Or do they have to rely on prior experience?

And secondly, have you considered an option to take multiple rolls, and choose all of them?
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:42 pm

Grey Pen wrote:TOn Laughter: There is already an option for rolling multiple results, and choosing the best one... First off, does the GM inform the player what the rolls mean? Or do they have to rely on prior experience?

That's a utility talent, and only works once. This is in a completely different mechanic and is stackable. Also, to your question, what does the utility talent let you do?

Grey Pen wrote:And secondly, have you considered an option to take multiple rolls, and choose all of them?

Yes.
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  thematthew on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:58 pm

Just a couple of nitpicks:

Talent - Buff’s the talent of the element, meaning that it cannot be taken if you have the talent, and that its used at the same time as the current talent, unless specified elsewhere.

What on Earth is that supposed to mean? It seems to be implying that you can take these to make the element's talent better, but only if you don't have the element's talent...

[10] Alternative - Trigger: Your ally uses a magic point. Effect: Negate the use of the magic point.

Should be reworded, because the way this is written it should cancel out the effect of the magic point as well as the cost. I don't think that was the intent.

[7] Alternative - For ten minutes, your allies cannot fail a skill check in a skill you are trained in. When they do, perform the skill check yourself with a +5 bonus.

Should be reworded a little. Mostly because it says that your allies can't fail, and then gives an effect for if they do. It should probably say something more like:

[7] Alternative - For ten minutes, if any ally fails a skill check in a skill you are trained in, perform the skill check yourself with a +5 bonus. Treat your ally's check as successful if you succeed.
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:02 pm

Edited so they make sense. On the first thing, I missed a 'don't'
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Philadelphus on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:01 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:The problem then, as is often the case, is that players can just keep doing random skill checks until they get nat 20s over and over and over agian.

"I try to convince that mare that the sky is green... No good? Okay... That one... And then that one..."

(200 ponies later)

"Hell yeah, 10 nat 20s!"
That's basically the point I was trying to make, except that in my proposed version players would have only a flat 5% chance of success, whereas the way it was worded, anytime players succeed in a skill check (which may have a more than 5% chance of happening depending on the check and the character), they then get a +1 bonus to all future checks for the day, which makes them more likely to succeed, which gives them a larger bonus, which makes them more likely to succeed, ad infinitum until they drop of exhaustion at the end of the day. It's basically a runaway feedback loop, especially as there's no way to lose the bonus other than sleeping at the end of the day.

Admittedly, it could still happen with my version too, but the chance of success would remain constant every roll, not increasing with every success. Probably the best idea would be to put some kind of limit on it; maybe something like "Each of your allies' first successful skill check for the day gives all party members a stacking +1 bonus to all future skill checks for the day"?
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:04 pm

... I'll put on if you fail a check. The bonus is lost.
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Philadelphus on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:16 pm

That could work. You'd have a nice dramatic tension whenever you'd succeeded in a few checks and had a +3 bonus or what-not and had to roll on a hard check. It would still be possible, if players were very lucky, to get a runaway bonus such that you can't hardly fail, but it would be much, much, riskier, as a single failed check knocks you back to square one. I think having an open-ended bonus is a great idea, it gives players something to strive for, while the failure mechanic keeps them from becoming too powerful most of the time. I like it.
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:06 pm

Very Happy Glad you like it!
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Grey Pen The Flawed on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:13 pm

Can't believe it took me so long to notice it...

But I think it's supposed to be "harmonious", not "harminous".
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:13 pm

Grey Pen wrote:Can't believe it took me so long to notice it...

But I think it's supposed to be "harmonious", not "harminous".

... Nooooo ....
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:31 am

Sorry for the bump, but is anyone going to have a go at testing this?
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Re: Harminous Element

Post  Philadelphus on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:51 pm

Let me sit down with it this week and go over it thoroughly, and if I can clear up any confusions or potential problems I find I'll see if I can get it tested in the next game I'm in, which should be starting in a month or so.
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