Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
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SilentBelle
Paper Shadow
Xel Unknown
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Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:51 pm
Personally, while I love the three new specials The Art of War update gave use to work with. But the Assassin's Gambit d12 special, is very underwelaming... A good 11 times out of 12, it'll do nothing, and when it does something, you might end up. Killing a monster you didn't wish to given it's wording... (I mean as it's worded right now, a GM should count it's effects as having killed the enemy regardless... But I diegress...)
So um... I was thinking maybe allowing it to also have multiteared effects, like I'd suggest allowing a chance to trigger BOTH the d8 and d10 special, or allowing to do an effect that's a mix of the other two effects but more poweful? Just, I find it wrong, because getting a critial that has a high chance of DOING NOTHING isn't what a special should do. At worst it should only be a 50-50 change of doing nothing... Even with the power to auto-kill any monster, I still find it, lacking. Sure when it was new I liked it, but after thinking it over. It need to do more. Or be reworked... Not saying it's bad, just thinking it could use a minor buff of some kind is all.
So um... I was thinking maybe allowing it to also have multiteared effects, like I'd suggest allowing a chance to trigger BOTH the d8 and d10 special, or allowing to do an effect that's a mix of the other two effects but more poweful? Just, I find it wrong, because getting a critial that has a high chance of DOING NOTHING isn't what a special should do. At worst it should only be a 50-50 change of doing nothing... Even with the power to auto-kill any monster, I still find it, lacking. Sure when it was new I liked it, but after thinking it over. It need to do more. Or be reworked... Not saying it's bad, just thinking it could use a minor buff of some kind is all.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Paper Shadow Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:55 pm
I posted this on the Art of War thread, but no one replied, so let me post it here as well...
Paper Shadow wrote:So, I have been thinking about the Assassin's Gambit 12 Crit. I feel that, while an insta-kill is indeed incredibly powerful, if you fail the second throw, you get nothing, which makes the move very weak when compared to other Special Moves, most importantly the Derpy's Lightning/It's Over combo. To compare, the latter (usually) has a 1/5 chance to trigger its killing move, although it is weaker than the insta-kill, but if you don't get it, you still get something from one of your other moves. And while it means you have to take It's Over into combat to do that, while Assassin's Gambit is always there, it is still more efficient to do that for each combat scenario than risk it on Assassin's Gambit. I understand that not every crit is equal (after all, the Be Prepared 8 Crit is much better than the Derpy's Lightning 8 Crit), but I believe the 12 Crit is the centrepiece of Assassin's Gambit, the main reason one would get it. The 8 Crit is nice, and may actually be the real centrepiece, and although I'm not a fan of the 10 Crit, people who focus more on damage than survivability will like it, the 12 Crit is the thing that screams Assassin, and it would be nice if it felt better to use...
Now, I'm not saying make it do a lot if you do fail. After all, the design is All-or-Nothing. But I believe that it would feel better as a Special Move if it did something, even if that something is very small. A consolation prize, if you will. Even something like Ongoing Damage 1 (Save Ends). It turns the failure from "Well, that was a waste," to "Well, it's something."
So; what do you think about that?
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
SilentBelle Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:27 pm
I'll toss up some suggestions to mull over 
Maybe, if on a 12 it kills, on a 10 it activates the 10 special, and on an 8 it activates the 8 special?
-Or maybe for each time it's activated in a battle you can choose to add 1 to the total roll?
-Or maybe it should do damage to target enemy equal half the amount of missing HP they have and on a 12 it still kills? (probably my favourite of these ideas)
-Or perhaps on a roll of 11 or less, you get a free standard action that must be used immediately
-Or you cause the enemy to deal 3 less damage to targets that aren't you, this effect ends at the end of your next turn.
I definitely feel that it needs something to make it worthwhile, personally, I would never choose that particular special just because of the the 12 crit it currently has.
Maybe, if on a 12 it kills, on a 10 it activates the 10 special, and on an 8 it activates the 8 special?
-Or maybe for each time it's activated in a battle you can choose to add 1 to the total roll?
-Or maybe it should do damage to target enemy equal half the amount of missing HP they have and on a 12 it still kills? (probably my favourite of these ideas)
-Or perhaps on a roll of 11 or less, you get a free standard action that must be used immediately
-Or you cause the enemy to deal 3 less damage to targets that aren't you, this effect ends at the end of your next turn.
I definitely feel that it needs something to make it worthwhile, personally, I would never choose that particular special just because of the the 12 crit it currently has.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:04 pm
I think any of your suggested moves would fix that special's weakness...
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Hayatecooper Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:00 am
>Or maybe it should do damage to target enemy equal half the amount of missing HP they have and on a 12 it still kills? (probably my favourite of these ideas)
If this because it's thing. I'd take it on all kinds of things cause that would be epic.
Maybe have it though, it does a percentage of the damage depending on what you roll?
So.
1-5 - 20%
6-10 - 40%
11-15 - 60%
16-19- 80%
20 - Instant kill.
Maths isn't my thing, so the numbers may need to be reworked but you get the basic gist I'm sure.
If this because it's thing. I'd take it on all kinds of things cause that would be epic.
Maybe have it though, it does a percentage of the damage depending on what you roll?
So.
1-5 - 20%
6-10 - 40%
11-15 - 60%
16-19- 80%
20 - Instant kill.
Maths isn't my thing, so the numbers may need to be reworked but you get the basic gist I'm sure.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:34 am
ONly fact is that by the fact that Dazzling Performance's d10 is better just because it has a fifty present to do SOMETHING, and it got better odds if you aren't dealing with a solo more so then having a crit that do nothing. Regardless of how powerful it's effect is, being only a one in 12 of haveing what's ALREADY A ONE IN 12 change of tiggering, makes it pointless and sad. I'd sill be arguing that it's bad, EVEN IF IT HAD YOU WIN THE CAMPAIGN by triggering a second 12...
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:13 pm
That's working with a d20 roll, not a d12 roll... But not sure if that works... For it's power, making it have it always do something that powerful is a bit OP... Think about what Critfisher can be used to just kill everything by triggering that move just more then once you'll get a good deal of damage output for nothing.Hayatecooper wrote:1-5 - 20%
6-10 - 40%
11-15 - 60%
16-19- 80%
20 - Instant kill.
So I do say having the d12 move got some odds of doing nothing isn't unfair, but I'm just arging that having said odds of doing nothing be 11/12 is TOO HIGH... It shouldn't be higher then 50% odds with a special, and even then, the only way to justify such a HIGH odds is that the special should be able to hit all monesters making the odds of failure being more fuildic... So by that logic the only way to justify odds of 11/12 to do nothing would be "Auto-Win Campaign" in my mind, cause it's so unlikely to do anything in a fight.
I personally think having it be a 25% - 50% chance of doing nothing (the lower, the better I agure) next we gotta pick out what the other outcomes it does really do.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Zarhon Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:48 pm
Personally, I think that:
- the d8 needs to be improved: The Vuln2 is a low amount for special (regular abilities can do the same/more, albeit shorter), doesn't stack with other vuln sources and only benefits the owner of the special, meaning that in order to benefit from it, you must then follow up with an attack, without getting KO'd in the meantime.
- the d10 is powerful, but the risk is stupidly huge, too big to be useful when it triggers. Bosses are viable to instantly knock you out, knock you comatose, or even *kill* you in one shot. Most people wouldn't be able to take the risk, and would be stuck with a special they can't afford to use. The whole risk mechanic doesn't even really fit a "assassin" type character, this looks more like a juggernaut/berzerker special.
- the d12 is story/plot/campaign/character breaking when it works, and is utterly useless otherwise. First off, the "kill" should be changed to "defeated/knocked comatose", or give a choice between KO'ing, defeating or killing your opponent, so that you aren't faced with a morality issue if it triggers off a creature you DON'T want it to be used on. It should also have a use, *any* use, if the roll fails, otherwise the special feature becomes very disappointing (and, likely, never used).
Here's my idea of how it can be reworked:
- the d8 needs to be improved: The Vuln2 is a low amount for special (regular abilities can do the same/more, albeit shorter), doesn't stack with other vuln sources and only benefits the owner of the special, meaning that in order to benefit from it, you must then follow up with an attack, without getting KO'd in the meantime.
- the d10 is powerful, but the risk is stupidly huge, too big to be useful when it triggers. Bosses are viable to instantly knock you out, knock you comatose, or even *kill* you in one shot. Most people wouldn't be able to take the risk, and would be stuck with a special they can't afford to use. The whole risk mechanic doesn't even really fit a "assassin" type character, this looks more like a juggernaut/berzerker special.
- the d12 is story/plot/campaign/character breaking when it works, and is utterly useless otherwise. First off, the "kill" should be changed to "defeated/knocked comatose", or give a choice between KO'ing, defeating or killing your opponent, so that you aren't faced with a morality issue if it triggers off a creature you DON'T want it to be used on. It should also have a use, *any* use, if the roll fails, otherwise the special feature becomes very disappointing (and, likely, never used).
Here's my idea of how it can be reworked:
Assassin's Gambit - reworked
8: Choose target creature. That creature becomes your “Mark”, suffering an extra 4 damage against your abilities. The extra damage caused by the mark decreases by 1 each time it is triggered. Re-applying a "Mark" sets it back to a value of 4 extra damage.
10: Choose target creature. That creature is "Doomed" for the rest of the encounter. Any "Doomed" creature must flip a coin when damaged by any source of damage that you inflicted. If heads, that value is doubled.
12: Roll a d12. If the result is a 12, you may choose to KO, defeat, or kill (at DM's discretion) a target creature. For any other die result, inflict 1/4 of the target creature's current hitpoints as damage. This value cannot be influenced (resist, vulnerability, double damage, etc) in any way.
Last edited by Zarhon on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:52 pm
Again, I aruge that dealing power to deal 1/4th of anything's HP... IS TOO POWERFUL... All you need is just to trigger a d12 special four times (something easily done with Critfisher) and then you win all fights. Other then that, great suggestions to fix that special. :3
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Zarhon Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:20 pm
Xel Unknown wrote:Again, I aruge that dealing power to deal 1/4th of anything's HP... IS TOO POWERFUL... All you need is just to trigger a d12 special four times (something easily done with Critfisher) and then you win all fights. Other then that, great suggestions to fix that special. :3
Wrong! The reworked version of the special is for current hp, not total, so it gets weaker as the boss loses hp. The talent is at its strongest at the start of a fight, when its at max hp. If the enemy has 12 hp out of a total of 100, you do only 3 damage, not 20. And the only way to KO something with it is to either roll the 12 on the d12, or if the enemy has 1hp. So yes, it's powerful, and but only if you get it right at the start (much like its "kill" function), as the fight goes on, it becomes less useful (but useful nonetheless).
I've edited it slightly though, so it can't be affected by stuff like vulnerability, resist or double damage.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:33 pm
Ah, didn't notice that, now it looks perfect. :3
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
SilentBelle Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:56 pm
Here's another I thought of, no insta-kill for it, instead:
Choose one:
A) Deal target unbloodied creature 2d12 damage.
B) Reduce target bloodied creature's HP by half the amount of damage it has already taken. (this reduces HP, doesn't deal damage, thus can't be resisted or affected by vulnerability.)
Zarhon's would be great for early hits on solo monsters, no question there (almost too powerful against an end boss if you got it on the first turn) but it loses it's effectiveness as the battle goes on. While this one would be great for about round 4 of combat against a solo (Assuming a normal 5-6 round combat) and it also is effective against single monsters, and can kill minions too if you had to.
I'd be happy to see other ideas too, so long as we eventually get this ability changed a bit
Choose one:
A) Deal target unbloodied creature 2d12 damage.
B) Reduce target bloodied creature's HP by half the amount of damage it has already taken. (this reduces HP, doesn't deal damage, thus can't be resisted or affected by vulnerability.)
Zarhon's would be great for early hits on solo monsters, no question there (almost too powerful against an end boss if you got it on the first turn) but it loses it's effectiveness as the battle goes on. While this one would be great for about round 4 of combat against a solo (Assuming a normal 5-6 round combat) and it also is effective against single monsters, and can kill minions too if you had to.
I'd be happy to see other ideas too, so long as we eventually get this ability changed a bit
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:30 pm
Given that an Assassin’s Job is to kill quickly, having a special that doesn't work great on longer fights, makes sense given it's name.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Stairc -Dan Felder Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:02 am
Xel Unknown wrote:Personally, while I love the three new specials The Art of War update gave use to work with. But the Assassin's Gambit d12 special, is very underwelaming... A good 11 times out of 12, it'll do nothing, and when it does something, you might end up. Killing a monster you didn't wish to given it's wording... (I mean as it's worded right now, a GM should count it's effects as having killed the enemy regardless... But I diegress...)
So um... I was thinking maybe allowing it to also have multiteared effects, like I'd suggest allowing a chance to trigger BOTH the d8 and d10 special, or allowing to do an effect that's a mix of the other two effects but more poweful? Just, I find it wrong, because getting a critial that has a high chance of DOING NOTHING isn't what a special should do. At worst it should only be a 50-50 change of doing nothing... Even with the power to auto-kill any monster, I still find it, lacking. Sure when it was new I liked it, but after thinking it over. It need to do more. Or be reworked... Not saying it's bad, just thinking it could use a minor buff of some kind is all.
Really busy right now, but let me write a quick reply.
I completely agree. All the original drafts of the ability had a version of doing something if you don't roll the 12 and doing the instant-kill if you do roll the 12. They also gave you the 'may' option to kill the creature. They looked something like this.
12: Roll a d12. If you roll an 11 or lower, target creature suffers vulnerability 2 against your attacks until the end of your next turn. If you roll a 12, you may kill target creature.
However, while that gives you all the mechanical things people want out of the power (the may option to kill a creature and knowing that you won't ever completely whiff on the special)... It's really a clunky read. Sure, it's simple - but the power's multiple outcomes and effects seem to downplay the sheer awesomeness of just killing the creature. The simplicity makes the power just look... So cool. So the next draft tried this.
12: Roll a d12. If you roll a 12, you may kill target creature.
The shock and awe value of this text felt a lot higher. Sure, it's technically not as good as the lengthier version, but it *feels* more awesome. The ability stands on its own and is vivid and exciting. It showcases that this is all about the chance of instantly killing something, not just having that as the cherry-on-top of another ability. In short, less reliable - but seems so much cooler.
The 'you may' seemed to soften the raw lethality of the power too for some reason... So another change.
12: Roll a d12. If you roll a 12, kill target creature.
While running into all the design issues mentioned above and in this thread, this version just created the raw shock and awe value that we wanted to create with the power. And it definitely got a huge buzz. Half the initial readers of The Art of War specifically shouted out how excited they were about that special. The presentation definitely works.
The issue is a decision between presentation and substance. One version is mechanically more satisfying, the other is much more exciting when read on its own. I could easily see changing the power to reliably generate a small benefit, it makes complete sense for gameplay, but it doesn't have the same shock and awe factor.
So it's a trade-off. Not sure if we'll edit it one way or the other.
Anyway, that's the rationale behind the original design - just so you know what we were thinking.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:24 am
The "shock and awe" only goes so far until you start to think about the special in question... So as is, it's all flash, with most of the time no boom, and when it does give you a boom, it's got the might and power of A NUKE that you had used in combat given the aftereffects that would happen from role playing off the effect of having just KILLED something without question, and for the GM it might've been something you that was meant to be like a major character of the whole campaign that wasn't meant to die in this fight... And as pointed out by Zarhon, the other two parts of this special aren't so great either, and the d10 most of all doesn't fit so much with the "default" flavor one could say. Cause getting double damage in a two way street seems to be more a type of berzaker build then an "Assassin" type of effect.
And I do enjoy seeing the whole "bad logic" that was used to mess up the special in such a way.
And I do enjoy seeing the whole "bad logic" that was used to mess up the special in such a way.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Stairc -Dan Felder Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:41 am
Xel Unknown wrote:The "shock and awe" only goes so far until you start to think about the special in question...
Some players absolutely love that special, so not sure that it dies down the more you think about it. Some players love rolling the dice and taking their chances, which is why we make things like coin-flip powers. I'd prefer if the power did do something when you didn't trigger the d12 though, though I might be biased (as my playstyle is always to go for the reliable).
Xel Unknown wrote:t might've been something you that was meant to be like a major character of the whole campaign that wasn't meant to die in this fight...
We think that this isn't a big issue for two reasons.
1) The chances are incredibly small of this happening in the critical fight against the big bad (the penultimate climactic battle before the big bad would be defeated - these battles don't happen regularly).
2) If it does happen... It would feel AWESOME as a player to see the 12 come up and get to kill Voldemort instantly. I still remember how cool it felt in playing a pokemon game when my level 3 togepei - in fighting a gym leader much stronger than me (my whole team got wiped) used metronome... Getting to use a move at random... And somehow landed on Horn Drill (one of hundreds of moves that could have been selected, horn drill only hits 30% of the time but insta-kills if it does hit) and then it HIT... And the gym leader's last pokemon fell down. Victory! I told that story for weeks and... Well, years I guess. I'm still telling it today.
That kind of moment is so raw awesome that we think it would be a positive note in the campaign, not a negative one. I know I as a DM would love to see this happen to my big bad. My players would feel awesome.
Xel Unknown wrote:the d10 most of all doesn't fit so much with the "default" flavor one could say. Cause getting double damage in a two way street seems to be more a type of berzaker build then an "Assassin" type of effect.
Can't say that I fully agree. The ability is extremely risky and helps you mark an enemy for death. It does an assassin-thing and it puts you at risk.. So it's a gambit. Gambits in chess involve sacrificing pieces for a powerful attack. So while I can definitely see that it does fit with a berserker's flavor, I'd say it fits with an "Assassin's Gambit" flavor too.
That said, definitely looking forward to reading everyone's ideas on alternate options for the specials. They were added at the end of Art of War development because Kindulas felt there should be an expansion for them too, and this would be a good place to work them in. We agreed, but everything else was ready to release - so we didn't give them as much attention as the rest of the expansion.
And I do enjoy seeing the whole "bad logic" that was used to mess up the special in such a way.
Not sure this was necessary. Furthermore, as the special has been by far the most popular of all the new specials - despite the fact that you seem to find flaws with every aspect of it - and that it definitely got the shock and awe reaction we were looking for (fun fact - even more people have written to me saying that the 12 move is too powerful than have written to me saying that it's underpowered)... I think the trade-off was a calculated judgment call. Not saying that we were right of course. =)
We also didn't want everyone in the group to actually use the 12 power too much, which is another reason we made it do nothing when not triggering a 12. That way players could appreciate the ability but it would be less likely that whole teams would try to build around it. Multiplying the people triggering the special by 4-5 (average party size) and the number of instant kills goes up. This makes it both feel much less special and more troublesome in adventure design.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:16 am
Look to Zarhon's qouted post first, this tagged rant need not be read if you are hear to talk about improving the special itself:
- skippible rant:
- You know, while you think you have a right to "talk" for other people, I say those people should make their voices herd by the masses of this forum, and I also feel that every time I read you claiming a "we" or there being "other people" I can't help but take it as you trying to use a smokescreen to muddle the issue at hand... Like it's more that you dislike the fact that oh hey, I the deserter is talking, so because there are these "other people" I should stay quite and join the bandwagon. Well no, that's not what I do. I'm an Oddball, always have been, always will be. Again, I am sorry for my tone and wording here, just it's something that stuck with me after taking an english class that was all about arguments. To me you seem to be either knowingly or unknowingly using the bandwagon falousy, or whatever the right term is, to ignore my side. It's just something I can't help but feel, again I am sorry if my tone is a bit mean, I don't mean to be.
And while I did NOT mean to offend by calling you and your devs train of thought in that special's mods as "bad logic" to me, that's just what I'll call it, like as you claim yourself as being biased to the practical, I feel the same. So all the changes I saw that were made to the Special while in it's desizie faigh was to remove all practical appellation the special could have. While "your group" might enjoy that outcome, that doesn't mean all groups would. Therefore the arugment to return the power of choice between killing and non-killing.
Zarhon wrote:Personally, I think that:
- the d8 needs to be improved: The Vuln2 is a low amount for special (regular abilities can do the same/more, albeit shorter), doesn't stack with other vuln sources and only benefits the owner of the special, meaning that in order to benefit from it, you must then follow up with an attack, without getting KO'd in the meantime.
- the d10 is powerful, but the risk is stupidly huge, too big to be useful when it triggers. Bosses are viable to instantly knock you out, knock you comatose, or even *kill* you in one shot. Most people wouldn't be able to take the risk, and would be stuck with a special they can't afford to use. The whole risk mechanic doesn't even really fit a "assassin" type character, this looks more like a juggernaut/berzerker special.
- the d12 is story/plot/campaign/character breaking when it works, and is utterly useless otherwise. First off, the "kill" should be changed to "defeated/knocked comatose", or give a choice between KO'ing, defeating or killing your opponent, so that you aren't faced with a morality issue if it triggers off a creature you DON'T want it to be used on. It should also have a use, *any* use, if the roll fails, otherwise the special feature becomes very disappointing (and, likely, never used).
Here's my idea of how it can be reworked:Assassin's Gambit - reworked
8: Choose target creature. That creature becomes your “Mark”, suffering an extra 4 damage against your abilities. The extra damage caused by the mark decreases by 1 each time it is triggered. Re-applying a "Mark" sets it back to a value of 4 extra damage.
10: Choose target creature. That creature is "Doomed" for the rest of the encounter. Any "Doomed" creature must flip a coin when damaged by any source of damage that you inflicted. If heads, that value is doubled.
12: Roll a d12. If the result is a 12, you may choose to KO, defeat, or kill (at DM's discretion) a target creature. For any other die result, inflict 1/4 of the target creature's current hitpoints as damage. This value cannot be influenced (resist, vulnerability, double damage, etc) in any way.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
SilentBelle Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:33 am
Hmm, horndrill, through metronome would never work in the current versions sadly... since it's based on level... Still must have been a great moment.
Heh, I just wanted a reliable assassin move in place of an insta-kill. If I were building an assassin-style character currently, I'd probably take the Be Prepared special instead. But, I've always been one to choose reliable over random
I kind of felt that the d12 special was a big jump in 'theme' from the other two triggers, sure it's shocking, but it doesn't really keep the theme. I figured it should kind of go for a 'choose target creature, it suffers X effect until end of encounter' like the others.
I'd aim for something like: 12 crit:
Choose a target creature that creature receives a Death Counter. Until the end of the encounter, as a minor action you may us the following attack.
[0] Death Strike - Minor Attack
Deal Xd12 damage to target creature that has at least one Death Counter, where X is the number of Death Counters that creature has.
I don't know the inst-kill just feels off somehow... that's how I feel anyway, but if other people like that move, well then I'll just stick with Be Prepared.
And as for that suggestion Xel, I'd even recommend ditching insta-kill on the d12 altogether, but it could be that I'm just a monster sympathizer or something
Heh, I just wanted a reliable assassin move in place of an insta-kill. If I were building an assassin-style character currently, I'd probably take the Be Prepared special instead. But, I've always been one to choose reliable over random
I kind of felt that the d12 special was a big jump in 'theme' from the other two triggers, sure it's shocking, but it doesn't really keep the theme. I figured it should kind of go for a 'choose target creature, it suffers X effect until end of encounter' like the others.I'd aim for something like: 12 crit:
Choose a target creature that creature receives a Death Counter. Until the end of the encounter, as a minor action you may us the following attack.
[0] Death Strike - Minor Attack
Deal Xd12 damage to target creature that has at least one Death Counter, where X is the number of Death Counters that creature has.
I don't know the inst-kill just feels off somehow... that's how I feel anyway, but if other people like that move, well then I'll just stick with Be Prepared.
And as for that suggestion Xel, I'd even recommend ditching insta-kill on the d12 altogether, but it could be that I'm just a monster sympathizer or something
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Stairc -Dan Felder Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:40 am
Definitely will go over Zarhon's no-doubt excellent analysis (didn't he write, like, half The Talent Show expansion? =) ) When I get the time to give the full critiques their due attention. I only have time to respond to explain why we made this thing so very different from how we usually design things. There's been clearly a lot of great discussion here, and I thought you guys deserved to hear what was going on in our often-silly heads. :
- response to other stuff:
- You know, while you think you have a right to "talk" for other people, I say those people should make their voices herd by the masses of this forum, and I also feel that every time I read you claiming a "we" or there being "other people" I can't help but take it as you trying to use a smokescreen to muddle the issue at hand...
Oh, not at all. Sorry it comes off that way. The reason I use the 'we' is because...
1) Kindulas, Nehiel and I often have game developer meetings where we go over a huge amount of stuff. They can sometimes last 10-12 hours when we're reviewing and polishing submissions and one another's designs. We can't write up everything we talked about during these meetings onto the forums afterwards, especially all the ideas that we consider and later reject, but when I'm going over the thought process behind certain designs - I'm referencing the conversation that we had together and the decisions we made going forward (and can't for the life of me remember exactly who said what anyway when it was weeks or months ago). So that's one reason I say, "we" in these sort of things - because I'm referencing a collective discussion between the developers that we worked on together.
2) All the pre-release discussion and earliest beta-tests goes on in certain skype groups or my live playgroups, when we (developers) want instant feedback from a small group of people before releasing the expansion to the whole community. This produces a lot of discussion off the forum. For example, Karilyn almost never checks the forum anymore but has given copious feedback in the skype chat. For another example, almost none of my live living legends players are bronies - and thus don't check this site. If I want to reference their feedback, the skype chat's feedback, or feedback I get from individuals via PMs or email, I can only talk about them even when their feedback isn't posted on the forums itself.
I understand this makes things difficult to reply to, and it's precisely because these conversations are happening off the forums that I try to mention them when I'm on the forums - so all you great designers can know about their feedback too.
Please, don't think that because a lot of people like something - it somehow means that we don't want to hear people that are dissatisfied with it. It just means that we want to try to figure out a way to tweak things so that even more people can be satisfied with the power. Of course, we also have to be careful in tweaking - so that we don't ruin something that a lot of people already love. You might remember the huge backlash we had from some users when we got rid of the racial barriers to certain utility talents.
I am sorry if my tone is a bit mean, I don't mean to be.
No worries. I had a feeling it wasn't intentional. All forgiven. And thanks for letting me know that my use of 'we' and such was coming off a way other than I intended too. While "your group" might enjoy that outcome, that doesn't mean all groups would. Therefore the arugment to return the power of choice between killing and non-killing.
And definitely an argument I'm super-sympathetic towards. Hence why I mentioned right from the first post that I wasn't sure if we were going to keep things the same or not. We definitely want things to stay looking as cool as possible to provide the shock and awe value, but we'd like to tweak it so that it's more fun to play with too. I'm looking forward to reading over all your suggestions.
Wow, spent a long time typing all this. If I'd known it'd go this long, I'd have just read all your ideas from the beginning! Rest assured though, while I'm DEFINITELY out of time now, we'll bring this up in the next dev review session - whenever that might be. Feel free to PM Kindulas and Nehiel about this thread.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:41 am
I wont disagree, the idea of removing the auto-kill might be a good move for the special. And your suggestion might just be the way to equal the power, but that idea might be broken if used in a Critfisher combo...
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Stairc -Dan Felder Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:44 am
Heh, I just wanted a reliable assassin move in place of an insta-kill.
Gah! Want to respond to all these great posts! But packing for college again... Curses!
Will say one last thing though before getting at least *some* more packing done. If you want reliable assassin moves, perhaps we should take these ideas and make a new Assassin Special to be added to the system. After all, there seem to be a lot of great ones and there's a lot of design space left in Specials. We have around 200 combat talents but less than 10 specials (unless I counted wrong). That way those that love the insta-kill lottery and want their own togepi moments can have it and those that want to build a well-rounded assassin character can have their own.
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Zarhon Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:52 am
- A skippable wall of text that probably doesn't concern the discussed topic anymore:
- The thing with that mentality in the design is that the player chooses their special, something that defines almost every combat encounter they will have, based off that single d12 ability's description. Not the d10, let alone the d8, just that one d12, meaning that they also build their combat builds to match. And then, as they gradually fight encounters with their characters, not triggering the special, or triggering it when they can't afford to, they learn how incredibly inefficient the talent really is, doing nothing (or worse than nothing, getting them into trouble), making them regret taking the special move, meaning that initial start reaction of "wow, this is so cool" quickly turns into "wow, this is useless". Most players picking this would probably end up re-picking something else, simply because "it's not cool if it never happens".
It's a similar effect with utility talents as well... What seems cool or incredibly useful to the player, might end up being very rarely used (form of dolphin, traveler cloak enchant...), or too restricted to use (for example, basic ponykinesis, or any of the vaguely defines abilities, depending on the DM's ruling, setting, etc)... But whereas DMs can easily give players opportunities to use their chosen utility talents, even situational ones, the triggering of the d12 is nothing but pure luck, that the DM cannot influence.
And regarding the design, I really don't see how the "may kill" and "kill" wording makes any difference to anyone, since the DM still gets veto over such matters. The only thing that influences is the player's impression of the talent, whilst picking that talent during character creation. Despite all of its apparent coolness in giving you something that might wreck the hell out of the rules and settings and combat encounters, there is still, ultimately, the factor of the DM, who can either allow the "kill" to go through, screwing his campaign and possibly the player character, or veto it into something else, which negates any coolness the talent might have had (other than ending the combat encounter in their favor, which fits the ability).
Looking at it from a newly-built character's perspective...
- Player sees special move, decides he wants it because of its "cool" description and its specific kill mechanic.
- Player builds combat talents around trying to trigger the move.
- Player goes into combat encounters.
From there, you've got a bunch of scenarios...
1) d12 specials don't trigger, or d12 specials that trigger, don't trigger the kill. Player never benefits from their d12 special and has sub-par d10/d8 specials. Player either spends entire campaign never triggering kill move, or switches special move for something more reliable. They are HIGHLY unlikely to ever want to see the special move again.
2) d12 special triggers, and kill triggers. Target it works on is a regular or typical enemy, nothing campaign-breaking. Player satisfied for this rarity occurring, but "mileage may wary", depending on circumstance or luck.
3) d12 special triggers, kill triggers. Target is important to plot or the death of which would put players in trouble (morally/legally), or otherwise "not smart killing". Player resigns the kill, ends up not being satisfied, continues under 1), or 2) if very lucky.
4) d12 special triggers, kill triggers, target is plot important enemy. DM unwilling to allow kill (or even instant combat end) due to not being prepared for it, or other plot/campaign reason, for which he has full right via DM veto. Player feels cheated, proceeds under 1). Possible drama commences.
5) d12 special triggers, kill triggers, target is final boss or similar important enemy. DM allows kill. Player probably very satisfied, unless special circumstances negate the "coolness".
Out of these options, only 5) and 2) result in a player ultimately benefiting from it, the others resulting in every d12 special doing nothing, for every battle. What are the odds of 5) or 2) happening at any given combat encounter?
Are they truly worth the player skipping out on other, more reliable and/or powerful special moves, for those rare (1/144 chance, if I'm not mistaken) occurrences? Keep in mind, that when the player chooses the special, he usually has no idea what the campaign has in store, especially with a DM they haven't played under before.
TLDR, the "coolness" mentality is only cool if it works, or has reasonable chance of benefiting the character in exchange for the lost reliability and combat utility. If it doesn't, you instead get a huge letdown and the player is unlikely to want to use it again out of experience.
Last edited by Zarhon on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:01 am
Don't feel bad, I'm of the type that feels ranting is better to get out in a friendly enverment then letting it fester inside of you. And this is getting more people's views across to Dan and the rest of the people here, I hope, so that'll be something. :3
As long as we don't let it distract form the main topic of improving The Gambit Special, everyone's happy. :3
As long as we don't let it distract form the main topic of improving The Gambit Special, everyone's happy. :3
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
SilentBelle Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:06 am
If we can craft a new special out of this, that would be awesome 
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Re: Assassin’s Gambit d12 special
Xel Unknown Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:20 am
By the way Silent, I foresee me building you a reaper monster that works around this Death Counter idea you've suggested here...
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Similar topics» Special Moves
» A Few Special Talents
» Special move: Philomena's Song
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» New Special Moves - Designs needed!
» A Few Special Talents
» Special move: Philomena's Song
» Special Move: Mastermind's Scheme
» New Special Moves - Designs needed!
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