Utility Upgrades

Notice: Do not get this topic confused with the popular Talent Specialization thread and ideas. This thread is for utility talent upgrades which take a utility talent slot of their own.

So, yeah, Utility Talents which upgrade other Utility Talents. From my understanding of the system, I feel that the best way to design a character is to have them specialised at a few things, kinda like how a unicorn only has basic telekinesis and a few spells based on their cutie mark. Now, you don't have to agree with me, but if you are cool, like me, then you know that we could use more, and generally better, upgrades. So, this thread is dedicated to the ideas of these type of talents. When you are designing a talent upgrade, remember to keep in mind that, since they are taking so many talents dedicated to this, that they will be a core part of the character and their personality, so make sure they are good, and not just "Use X an extra Y times" and stuff like that. The more creative the idea, the more interesting it is to players, and the cooler the characters will be as a result...

So, pick a talent, think of some clever upgrades, and post them here, and if people think they are good, I'll add them here. I've also added some ideas of my own, so feel free to criticise those, because I'm obviously biased...

Utility Talent Upgrades (Sorted by Base Talent):

Arcane Eye:

Create Crazy Contraption:

Fleeting Miracle:

Howling Chains:

Memory to Mist:

Pinkie Promise:

Stealth Mode:

Weather-Crafter:

This looks like a good start. I'm not sure why Watch Memory requires Memory to Mist, though. They're related in that they both have to do with memories, but I don't see why one should require the other.

I'm playing a unicorn with weather crafting in one of my games, and he's spec'd for knowledge, so I could really use that Magic in the Air. Although, since I have It's Witchcraft, I believe my DM said I could use Arcana for weather crafting anyway. I suppose this brings up a good point: is Magic in the Air necessary, or should It's Witchcraft NOT allow the use of Arcana to do weather crafting?

Greywander wrote:This looks like a good start. I'm not sure why Watch Memory requires Memory to Mist, though. They're related in that they both have to do with memories, but I don't see why one should require the other.

I'm playing a unicorn with weather crafting in one of my games, and he's spec'd for knowledge, so I could really use that Magic in the Air. Although, since I have It's Witchcraft, I believe my DM said I could use Arcana for weather crafting anyway. I suppose this brings up a good point: is Magic in the Air necessary, or should It's Witchcraft NOT allow the use of Arcana to do weather crafting?

Well, Watch Memory doesn't have to need Memory to Mist, but it would have been weird had I opened this thread based on Utility Upgrades and had one idea which wasn't a upgrade. That said, I might make Alter Memory require both Memory to Mist and Watch Memory. Kinda hard to change something when you don't even know what it looks like...

As for Magic in the Air, when I initially thought of it, I realised that It's Witchcraft would be a better choice as you can use it to do anything, so I went and did some comparisons. Let's takes a look at the default Teleportation and the It's Witchcraft example of it as stated in the Ponyhandler's Guide...

Base Teleportation

• 5/Day
  
• Distance of 30ft
  
• No Roll Required

It's Witchcraft's Teleportation Example

• Infinite Uses
  
• Distance of 10ft
  
• DC of 25 (if not pressured), 30 (if under normal pressure), 35 (if incredibly pressured)

So, how does this translate with Weather Crafter? Well, I believe that, if you try to emulate the effects of Weather Crafter with It's Witchcraft, you won't be affect the full 100-foot radius, and you'll have to do a higher DC, while someone with Magic in the Air can enjoy a DC equal to what another character would do with an Athletics or Acrobatics check. In addition, if you don't have Weather Crafter, you can't take its upgrades, such as 10 Seconds Flat and The Sky’s The Limit (which, due to its wording, does give its boost to an arcana check) and whatnot. Obviously It's Witchcraft is still a great Swiss Army Knife of an ability, but magical characters which have a main point of affecting the weather would be better off specialising into Weather Crafter and taking Magic in the Air...

How have I not seen this thread before?

The designs in the original posts are far and away some of the better utility talents I've seen made. Several of them could be added with barely any polish at all. Great job!

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:How have I not seen this thread before?

The designs in the original posts are far and away some of the better utility talents I've seen made. Several of them could be added with barely any polish at all. Great job!

Wow. Thanks man. I haven't updated this topic because there wasn't any comments apart from Greywander's one, so I thought there wasn't interest, so I focused on my combat thread, but I'm very happy you liked my ideas...

I have huge interest in this concept. It solves the issue of including talent specialization without having to add a whole new 'points' gameplay element for upgrades. Plus, most importantly, it helps cut down on having too many utility talents to keep track of at higher levels.

Thought of some for this:

Pinkie Promise:

I'm not sure how I feel about those suggestions. Pinkie's Promise only cause cosmic retribution if you willingly break it, so there aren't many rolls you can make which failure causes you to break the promise, which is why I don't like I Gave My Word. Meanwhile, with Ever Present Warning, if you make the other players make some easy to keep promise, you basically have full watch on them at all times, which is really, really powerful, and you get to send quick messages at them as well. Finally, I guess I Heard A Sorry In There Somewhere could work, but I personally see that more as a personal get-out-of-a-promise-free card. After all, you can use it on yourself as you break the promise, and then give yourself an easy favour. I don't think that's necessarily bad, but I'd like to think about the talent a bit more before making a final judgement. Still, I feel that it is the best of those suggestions, so I'll add it into the first post...

Also, I've added a thing for Stealth Mode, because why not? I've also removed Magic in the Air, as it is no longer needed...

Here are some of mine.

Enduring Chains
Prerequisite: Howling Chains
Your Howling Chains now disappear after 4 hours instead of 2 hours.

Fleeting Miracle - 1/Day
You restore one willing creature to life for the next ten minutes, provided it died in the last month. You need a piece of the creature’s body on hand in order to perform this utility talent.

Imperious Miracle
Prerequisite: Fleeting Miracle
Your Fleeting Miracle can now restore unwilling creatures to life as well.

Perceptive Eye
Prerequisite: Arcane Eye
You gain an additional +10 bonus to perception checks made through your Arcane Eye.

Archmage’s Eye
Prerequisite: Arcane Eye, Perceptive Eye
You are considered to have line of effect for the use of utility talents through your Arcane Eye in addition to line of sight - meaning that you can use your utility talents through your Arcane Eye.

Extra Eyes
Prerequisite: Arcane Eye
You may use Arcane Eye an additional time each day.

Soooo... Dan... While I disapprove of the (perceived) disapproval of the talent specialization system, (I guess I understand wanting to keep it simple, but the ability to offer some extra customization at level ups WITHOUT spending utility talents [which are at an incredible premium] seems near necessary to me; and even if you don't particularly want it on a personal level, the lead designer should [under standards I would hold myself to were I lead designer of an open-source project of this sort] endorse an addition in at least a small context so long as he/she can see the virtue of it) I do like your utility upgrades...

One thing though, what is fleeting miracle and why don't the Skypers get it? (ಠ_ಠ)

Paper Shadow wrote:Finally, I guess I Heard A Sorry In There Somewhere could work, but I personally see that more as a personal get-out-of-a-promise-free card. After all, you can use it on yourself as you break the promise, and then give yourself an easy favour. I don't think that's necessarily bad, but I'd like to think about the talent a bit more before making a final judgement.

Probably should have worded it differently since it was actually not meant to be used on yourself. More intended to be a bargaining chip if you were in the presence of the one who broke it and wanted to grant mercy.

Z2 wrote:Soooo... Dan... While I disapprove of the (perceived) disapproval of the talent specialization system, (I guess I understand wanting to keep it simple, but the ability to offer some extra customization at level ups WITHOUT spending utility talents [which are at an incredible premium] seems near necessary to me; and even if you don't particularly want it on a personal level, the lead designer should [under standards I would hold myself to were I lead designer of an open-source project of this sort] endorse an addition in at least a small context so long as he/she can see the virtue of it) I do like your utility upgrades...

Utility talents are indeed at a premium, but keeping track of the full breadth of utility talents AND destiny features at higher levels gets cumbersome. This allows streamlining and focus, and it doesn't introduce new game mechanics. More elegant execution and fewer complications all around. It's a great service to the system. =)

The talent specialization ideas are great in concept, but the execution is really unnecessarily complicated. One reason the gameplay of Pony Tales is so smooth is because of elegance in gameplay mechanics. Since we can get the same effect of specializing and improving utility talents through leveling up with existing mechanics, there isn't enough of a compelling reason to add new mechanics. More complexity is always a problem and it's always to be avoided unless it adds a LOT more benefits than the inherent downsides. And since we can get a similar effect without all these extra points - there's no real reason to use the points.

Glad you like the new talents though =)

Z2 wrote:One thing though, what is fleeting miracle and why don't the Skypers get it? (ಠ_ಠ)

It's a new utility talent concept. No one has it yet.

...I already know WHY you disapprove, you don't have to hammer it in again.

I'm not saying you should like it (that would be futile), I'm saying you should make some kind of official update that says: "Oh, hey, while it's true that ~I~ hate complexity to the point of saying that it is not only fundamentally bad but a valid reason to dismiss things out of hand; a MASSIVE AMOUNT of players came up with and contributed to these simple-in-design bonus systems for making it so that there can be more to customizing your character than 'pick 5 things, add flavor'. Clearly this is something the players want, so here: have a compilation post that shows the different documents and maybe provides some base rules for implementing add-ons."

Heck, you could REDUCE the complexity just by providing a standard model for point systems like the talent specialization and its proposed combat and elemental equivalents. I realize that you provided much of the initiative for the project, but I think it's past the point where eliminating ideas because they go against the image of what "your game" should be is anything but tactless.

As for the other thing...:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:It's a new utility talent concept. No one has it yet.

Then why did you post an upgrade to a talent that effectively doesn't exist? Some kind of 'teaser' for the talent's release, only more of a matter of showing a movie trailer for a film's sequel before announcing the production of the film itself?

It's strange, because when I read posts like that I don't feel that you do understand why I disapprove - because it's incredibly off base of what I said.

I'm not sure it's a good moment to discuss basic game design theory of "why making things unnecessarily complicated makes life harder for players".

If you want to continue this conversation in PM, I'd be happy to. Or make a new thread for it.

As for showing the new idea, it's because I like to show new ideas. And it might be in the system soon.'

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:It's strange, because when I read posts like that I don't feel that you do understand why I disapprove - because it's incredibly off base of what I said.

'Consider wrong' is not the same as 'do not understand', but feel free to send me a PM about why you think I don't understand what you're saying. As for other discussion, don't bother: it never occurred to me that you'd change your mind on talent specialization being something you want, I just wanted to note that you ought to make SOME sort of post for the specializations from the standpoint of a compiler, an administrator, and someone who wants to allow players what they want as well as keeping things simple.

While I appreciate that you like my talent specialization Z2, it's not worth anyone getting worked up about. If Dan feels it's too complicated for first-time or new players to be made official, that's fine, and his call. It can remain a perfectly viable optional expansion that new players can perhaps try their second or third time around, or which more advanced players can tackle if they want (or teach the new ones!). And more utility talents are definitely a good thing, as that means more specialization options for me to come up with!

While I'm afraid I don't have any ideas of my own to add to this thread, I do like Paper Shadow's Personal Cloud idea and wanted to offer some critiques.

Two things stick out to me: what exactly "small" is, and the length of time the cloud persists. For the first, two suggestions spring to mind: first, a fixed number, such as, say, 30 cubic feet (which sounds big, but is really only a cube a little over three feet on a side). The second is to make it scale with level (an idea I like, and would like to see in more talents). Perhaps something like 5 cubic feet per player level? (Starting at a measly 5 cubic feet, growing to a decent 30 at level 6, and a respectable 50 at level 10).

The other critique was the duration. Clouds in Equestria seem to be fairly stable over long time periods unless explicitly forced to precipitate by pegasi. I'd love it if this talent let you summon a cloud that would then stick around until you did something with it (perhaps for a day at most, to prevent players stockpiling them), at which point it would disappear after a minute per the original draft of the talent. It'd be cool for a griffon or pegasus to summon a cloud to sleep on, and could piggyback nicely with the Cloud Sculpting talent.

Having critique'd, here's my proposal for a different version of it:

Personal Cloud - 2/Day [Created by Paper Shadow]
Prerequisite: 10 Seconds Flat
You somehow are able to create a small cloud (5 cubic feet times your current level) anywhere, even indoors. This cloud will persist for one day or until you use it to create or alter atmospheric conditions in a 10-ft radius, after which it will disappear after a minute.

The reason I said I don't think you understand my position is because what you stated my position is happens to... Not be my position.

But as you clearly don't think I'll change my mind on anything, I don't see the point of discussing this with you further.

I'm a little confused as to why you'd think that though. I mean, so much of the system has changed a lot based on player feedback, playtesting and great ideas from the forum. We took out the racial barriers to utility talents, added the extra options of genetic engineering (then boosted it to the 8 point system due to player feedback) and are working on a complete revamp of boons right now. And that's just some of the stuff. I feel I must be misunderstanding something, but either way - this is definitely not the thread for this.

How about we focus more on making cool prerequisite talents and less on talking about other threads? =)

Philadelphus wrote:While I appreciate that you like my talent specialization Z2, it's not worth anyone getting worked up about. If Dan feels it's too complicated for first-time or new players to be made official, that's fine, and his call. It can remain a perfectly viable optional expansion that new players can perhaps try their second or third time around, or which more advanced players can tackle if they want (or teach the new ones!). And more utility talents are definitely a good thing, as that means more specialization options for me to come up with!

Absolutely. =)

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Here are some of mine.

Enduring Chains
Prerequisite: Howling Chains
Your Howling Chains now disappear after 4 hours instead of 6 minutes.
perform this talent.

Imperious Miracle
Prerequisite: Fleeting Miracle
Your Fleeting Miracle can now restore unwilling creatures to life as well.

If I am reading this correct you plan on nerfing Howling chains from 2 hours to an almost useless six minutes and making one of Miracle worker's more impressive features less unique...

Side note I rather enjoy the concept in archmage's eye.

The 6 minutes was a typo, it's definitely going to stay the current 2 hours.

Imperious Miracle was actually a copy/paste error - you didn't see the original talent. I'll post it below - I assure you it doesn't ruin the miracle worker's day.


Fleeting Miracle - 1/Day
You restore one willing creature to life for the next ten minutes, provided it died in the last month. You need a piece of the creature’s body on hand in order to perform this utility talent.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Here are some of mine.

My problem with some of your suggestions is that I don't feel that they add much, because they basically make an already good number into overkill. Howling Chains already lasts for 2 hours. I haven't seen much use of Howling Chains (the only times I've seen it being used was to prevent someone suffering from a heat stroke from drinking poisoned water, and to keep a small slime from reforming with a bowl of water (it's a long story)), but I couldn't think of many situations where 2 hours were not enough. Likewise, Arcane Eye already gives a +30 bonus to Perception checks made with it. Does it really need an additional +10? There would rarely be a situation where that bonus will be helpful in my opinion. Of course, you could have more experience and can prove to me otherwise, but that's how I feel...

I do like Imperious Miracle, even though it doesn't open many doors, but I feel there is fun to be had there. I do question the usefulness of bringing an unwilling creature back to life though. I don't think they would take it well...

I initially was a big fan of Archmage's Eye, but then I reread it and saw that you always could use it as a point for line of sight spells. So, what kind of spells can you use through the eye?

I find Extra Eyes kinda boring in my opinion, but I'll add it to the opening post as well...

ZamuelNow wrote:Probably should have worded it differently since it was actually not meant to be used on yourself. More intended to be a bargaining chip if you were in the presence of the one who broke it and wanted to grant mercy.

I realised your intention, but I do like this extra option. It kinda gives an extra option, and it can be used creatively, as well as opening a evil moment where you can be like "I had my fingers closed this entire time!" Personally, I don't see it without that part being too viable, since usually a creature who willingly breaks the promise won't be willing to make a new promise, and why would you trust them anyway? The only time I would use it is if the creature who breaks the promise had an ultimatum put before them, and it won't be of much use if I'm not there to forgive them, or if I tricked someone into taking the promise while pretending that their are no repercussions of breaking the promise, and then make them break the promise, and finally offering this door of escape to do something you know they would say no to if their life wasn't in danger, which is pretty convoluted. In my opinion, I'd rather explore this new alleyway of possibility than your original intention...

Philadelphus wrote:While I'm afraid I don't have any ideas of my own to add to this thread, I do like Paper Shadow's Personal Cloud idea and wanted to offer some critiques.

I don't really mind the changes you've made, so I guess I'll add your updated version to the first post as well...

Paper Shadow wrote:
My problem with some of your suggestions is that I don't feel that they add much, because they basically make an already good number into overkill. Howling Chains already lasts for 2 hours. I haven't seen much use of Howling Chains (the only times I've seen it being used was to prevent someone suffering from a heat stroke from drinking poisoned water, and to keep a small slime from reforming with a bowl of water (it's a long story)), but I couldn't think of many situations where 2 hours were not enough.

That sounds awesome. I was working with a typo version where the talent lasted for six minutes for some reason. 4 hours was thus a significant upgrade. We'd up the DC on this prerequisite version to make it even cooler. However, I think you underestimate the utility of being able to keep someone imprisoned for longer than it takes to have an extended rest. With 2 hours, you can't keep someone perpetually imprisoned without 2 people. With 4 hours, you can do it on your own. That does indeed open new doors.

Paper Shadow wrote:Likewise, Arcane Eye already gives a +30 bonus to Perception checks made with it. Does it really need an additional +10? There would rarely be a situation where that bonus will be helpful in my opinion. Of course, you could have more experience and can prove to me otherwise, but that's how I feel...

This I think you're missing the core point on. The +10 bonus definitely doesn't add too much, but that's the point - as it's a prerequisite for the extremely potent Archmage's Eye. The ability to use utility talents through your arcane eye offers a lot of benefits - and needs a corresponding higher price. Thus It requires a less powerful but still pleasant utility talent as a prerequisite. In short, having a +40 arcane eye that lets you cast utility talents through it is worth more like 3 utility talents than a +30 eye alone. Especially if we keep Extra Eyes, meaning you can summon it twice per day.

That said, Perceptive Eye could definitely be some similar nice-but-not-too-strong prerequisite talent - allowing it to fulfill this role. It doesn't need to just be a perception bonus. I'd much rather everything looks cool to players (hence the nerf to Magecraft being made more cool by introducing Magical Tricks as a pre-req, which is a pleasant pre-req to take all on its own). For example, extending the range of the eye.


As for archmage's eye - you definitely have line of sight via Arcane Eye. But you don't have line of effect - so you can't use most utility talents through them.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:That sounds awesome. I was working with a typo version where the talent lasted for six minutes for some reason. 4 hours was thus a significant upgrade. We'd up the DC on this prerequisite version to make it even cooler. However, I think you underestimate the utility of being able to keep someone imprisoned for longer than it takes to have an extended rest. With 2 hours, you can't keep someone perpetually imprisoned without 2 people. With 4 hours, you can do it on your own. That does indeed open new doors.

I guess you have a point. I didn't think of long-term stuff like keeping someone imprisoned while you rest, just short-term stuff like preventing someone from altering guards, where after two hours you would have already escaped. I'll add it in then...

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:This I think you're missing the core point on. The +10 bonus definitely doesn't add too much, but that's the point - as it's a prerequisite for the extremely potent Archmage's Eye. The ability to use utility talents through your arcane eye offers a lot of benefits - and needs a corresponding higher price. Thus It requires a less powerful but still pleasant utility talent as a prerequisite. In short, having a +40 arcane eye that lets you cast utility talents through it is worth more like 3 utility talents than a +30 eye alone. Especially if we keep Extra Eyes, meaning you can summon it twice per day.

That said, Perceptive Eye could definitely be some similar nice-but-not-too-strong prerequisite talent - allowing it to fulfill this role. It doesn't need to just be a perception bonus. I'd much rather everything looks cool to players (hence the nerf to Magecraft being made more cool by introducing Magical Tricks as a pre-req, which is a pleasant pre-req to take all on its own). For example, extending the range of the eye.

As for archmage's eye - you definitely have line of sight via Arcane Eye. But you don't have line of effect - so you can't use most utility talents through them.

I see, I see (the joke is that we are talking about eyes). I'll add it in (and re-add it as an Archmage's Eye prerequisite), but if I or someone else can think of something a bit more interesting to have as a prerequisite for Archmage's Eye, then I will most likely learn towards that...

Fun. It's interesting, one person who uses arcane eye specifically said they like the perception bonus - but I tend to shy away from additional skill bonus because they aren't that intereting. What about extending the range of the eye to one mile?

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Fun. It's interesting, one person who uses arcane eye specifically said they like the perception bonus - but I tend to shy away from additional skill bonus because they aren't that intereting. What about extending the range of the eye to one mile?

At first I thought that, with a +30 bonus, you could more or less see for a mile. Then I googled a conversion between 100 feet and a mile, and I was like "Oh". I think it would work, but why did the one person who uses arcane eye like the extra bonus? Didn't they feel a +30 bonus was enough, even when added on to whatever they roll and their perception modifier?