Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Page 1 of 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Greywander on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:24 pm

So I was thinking the other day, it seems like adventuring parties stick much closer together than they really should. I suppose you could justify it through backstory (the party consists of siblings and/or close friends, or they are the last survivors of a destroyed hometown, etc.), but your typical party generally consists of people who happen to be going the same general direction. They each have their own goals, and as soon as it's in their best interest to leave the party to pursue those goals, they realistically would.

I had the idea that maybe a DM could run several concurrent groups in the same setting, with players bouncing around between groups and having occasional solo sessions. It would make more sense, but it seems like a lot of work for one person.

So I was thinking, what if we had forum threads for settings rather than single campaigns, and players could do play-by-post sessions there, with multiple DMs to manage it? Players might have to be a little more autonomous, taking up some of the storytelling duties normally relegated to the DM when it comes to their personal story, either that or a DM could handle the stories of several players (so players would sign up under a particular DM, and then DM's would collaborate on the overarching story). It would be sort of like a pen and paper MMORPG.

A strictly linear forum format might not be the best for something like this, though. If we could somehow set it up so as to be organized by player and group (and have DMs tag their posts based on which player or group it's relevant to), that would make it much easier for players to sort through what is and isn't relevant to them.

Logistically, this would probably be difficult to set up and maintain, but I think it might be fun. I think I've seen a few other roleplaying forums try this, but they all used their own rule sets. I don't really want to have to learn a new system when I already know Pony Tales.
avatar
Greywander
Very Important Pony
Very Important Pony

Gender : Male
Posts : 119
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 30

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:28 pm

Greywander wrote:I had the idea that maybe a DM could run several concurrent groups in the same setting, with players bouncing around between groups and having occasional solo sessions. It would make more sense, but it seems like a lot of work for one person.

I do this with my Dragonreach games (which use the Living Legends/Pony Tales system). It works really well, with the players all effecting the world and often dealing with the results of the actions of the other parties. I recommend using more than one DM to cut down on workload too, if you can work together to keep track of what the other DM is doing in the world.
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3092
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  A1C Bronymous on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:32 pm

I've also thought of doing somtehing like this, but I had no idea how it might work. For sure interested, either as player or potential handler.
avatar
A1C Bronymous
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command

Gender : Male
Posts : 5712
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 26
Location : Columbus, MS

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Ramsus on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:05 pm

It's certainly an interesting concept but, I don't have any novel ideas on the subject at the moment.

It might be rather difficult to do in a default MLP setting though. So it'd probably need a custom setting of some kind.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 33
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:11 pm

I don't see why the idea of more than one group of characters whose interactions neighbor one another wouldn't work well in Equestria. Heck, it already happened in Season 3 with Spike's story paralleling Game's Ponies Play.
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3092
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Zarhon on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:30 pm

Well, if you ask me, a problem with the pony setting is that the "harmony and friendship" nature of it might not translate well with the different groups. There's also the issue of how they deal with the "show canon", between each other (e.g. the nature of Discord/Alicorns between different DMs and groups).

I like the sound of the idea, though - would be interested to see how it works. Is there any possibility of such a concept working for Skype games as well (allowing for linking between them, and possibly the PbPs)?
avatar
Zarhon
Smile Smile Smile
Smile Smile Smile

Gender : Male
Posts : 3531
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:33 pm

I've linked my home Dragonreach setting to two live campaigns and one play by post campaign. It's worked great so far.
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3092
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  A1C Bronymous on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:45 pm

Well, there's a difference between having a setting that you, as DM, use for multiple games (even games run more or less at the same time) that feed off of each other, and sharing a setting between several simultaneous games shared between multiple DMs. Head canon aside, the DMs would have to coordinate to know exactly what happened and where because of which group, or else they'd end running different versions of the same world with no visceral interaction between the groups. It'd be like running different Servers- everyone's playing the same game, but not everyone interacts with each other.

I think the first step is to come up with a head DM. This guy creates the setting and establishes the headcanon, and then delegates the group work to individual sub DMs. These sub DMs then run the games and relay the information up to the head guy, who can make and keep track of the changes within his world, and then disseminate relevant info back down.

This then raises the next issue of timing- if two groups are basically in the same area, after the same objective, or something else similar, then "who does what first" would have to be established so that the groups can work within a logical cause and effect.

For example- there's a necromancer holed up in a tower, casting a mass spell that's corrupting a town. One group is going for the necro, while another is investigating the town. If Group 1 kills the necro and turns off his spell, then Group 2's investigation would stall. Conversely, if Group 2 finds a way to disrupt the spell from the town, then the necro knows someone is on to him, and defenses are raised at the tower for group 1. "Simultaneous" is a loose term within play by posts, so an initiative order of sorts may have to be implemented to better establish cause and effect within the groups.
avatar
A1C Bronymous
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command

Gender : Male
Posts : 5712
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 26
Location : Columbus, MS

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:47 pm

Bronymous wrote:Well, there's a difference between having a setting that you, as DM, use for multiple games (even games run more or less at the same time) that feed off of each other, and sharing a setting between several simultaneous games shared between multiple DMs.

Just to clarify - Dragonreach is used in both ways here. I run two campaigns in it and one of my friends runs the play-by-post.
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3092
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Ramsus on Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:53 am

I actually rather like that idea Bronymous. If you wanted to get really complicated with it, it would even allows for a sort of almost solo play if someone was GMing within the setting for that one person and then sometimes could throw them out to do something with one of the groups before they go back to their solo adventure. Admittedly this wouldn't work well for combat but, they could be a low combat character and/or have some NPC summons/minions or something for their solo combat stuff.

Edit: Note: Ramsus wants to totally play the "spiderman" kind of character in a game like that. By "spiderman" he means that guy who just shows up in everyone else's stuff from time to time.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 33
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Caden2112 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:01 am

In all fairness, that could be pretty cool. It would also allow for actual conflicts of loyalty or 'filler episodes' that just don't tend to show up in normal settings...I mean, looking at the forums, a LOT of people like changelings as a race, myself included...But let's face it. Unless changelings were also going to be an antagonist, player changelings are effectively just the weird shape-shifting guy in the party. With something like this, the whole conflicted loyalty or 'actually IS 100% loyal to Chrysalis or whoever and is playing everyone else like cheap fiddles' angle can have more weight as they can sneak off to report if they're actively spying. Or alternately, you can have the simple idea of a pegasus player deciding he's had enough adventuring this month, he's chillin' in Cloudsdale for the next week to relax, considering his job before adventuring was 'mailpony.' Or other such things.
avatar
Caden2112
Best Pony
Best Pony

Posts : 1322
Join date : 2012-12-02
Age : 30

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Ramsus on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:09 am

If we're going to use Changelings in a large setting like so, DB has thought a lot about them and I like most of his ideas. It would certainly be good to borrow his brainpower on that since it's already something he's put a bunch of thought into and would entail less work for those working on the setting.

I like working on settings myself but, I don't think I'd want to be the grand overseer on something like this considering how many other things I'm already involved in. Still, very happy to help with setting ideas.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 33
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:32 am

That's neat. You could make a good starting point and maybe a few rules to keep it all in line, then a few separate DMs could run it. The problem would be if the DMs in question perform feats of world building that contradict each other, of course that would be what the rules decided before the game are for. Examples being: A decided Level of technology and how magic works in the setting. As well as the presence of monsters. Still it would be a wonderful undertaking and could result in a wonderfully fleshed out world. It would be really neat to end up with a 'Pony Tales Forum' version of Equestria that ends up with a rich back-story caused by the actions of the players. Also it might be imperative to catalog the adventures as you go, and those characters actions would bee a useful pool of back-story for DMs to draw upon. You just have to make sure the DMs won't butt heads over the little details.

I'm all for this idea!
avatar
SilentBelle
Monster Overseer
Monster Overseer

Gender : Male
Posts : 1162
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 30
Location : Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

View user profile http://www.fimfiction.net/user/SilentBelle

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Dusk Raven on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:11 am

SilentBelle wrote:That's neat. You could make a good starting point and maybe a few rules to keep it all in line, then a few separate DMs could run it. The problem would be if the DMs in question perform feats of world building that contradict each other, of course that would be what the rules decided before the game are for. Examples being: A decided Level of technology and how magic works in the setting. As well as the presence of monsters. Still it would be a wonderful undertaking and could result in a wonderfully fleshed out world. It would be really neat to end up with a 'Pony Tales Forum' version of Equestria that ends up with a rich back-story caused by the actions of the players. Also it might be imperative to catalog the adventures as you go, and those characters actions would bee a useful pool of back-story for DMs to draw upon. You just have to make sure the DMs won't butt heads over the little details.

I'm all for this idea!

Shared worldbuilding? The chance to create a unique, collective lore? I'm in.
avatar
Dusk Raven
Epic Pwny

Posts : 1756
Join date : 2013-01-23
Age : 26
Location : Midwest US

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Zarhon on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:39 am

Well, if setting world-building is a thing, I have a couple of ideas:

1) Fallout: Equestria
- Self explanatory, but may need knowledge of both Fallout and FO:E to function for the players / DM.

2) Regular Pony setting - either post-S3 or pre-S1 canon
- Self explanatory

3) Paranoia
- Each group's member has a free/modified "nine lives" racial, on a considerably shorter "timer" between deaths, and deaths are EXTREMELY common (and funny)
- Every player has a mutant trait of some sort - a daily utility, a special racial, which needs to be kept secret if they know whats good for them
- Everyone is encouraged to be a bastard traitor to each other, and to even sabotage other groups.
- Sessions or adventures run until only one person in the group remains alive, or they finish their assignment (one-shot sessions).
- Misadventures or active sabotage may cause or create a new missions/assignments/complications for the next batch of "troublebuckers".

4) Gregory Horror Show
- This is a bit obscure setting, but it revolves around a haunted mansion hotel for "lost souls". Too many details to describe, best to look it up.
- Slapstick comedy/horror theme, as the players attempt to escape the mansion, with the assistance of "Death".
- Utterly bizarre, weird and fairly creepy characters as hotel residents, some dangerous, some friendly.
- Dying is a possibility, and leads to becoming a "permanent resident" of the hotel (turned into a caricature of their personality, with associated flaws).
- Dead players / permanent residents transfer to other games as additions.

5) Lunar Republic / Solar Empire War
- Mostly self explanatory. A good example is the new Shadow Walkers campaign.

6) Evils of Equestria
- Play as explicitly evil characters, or minions to villains (changelings, monsters, megalomaniacs, discorded ponies, servants to Sombra...). Multiple groups of evil PCs and NPCs are fighting for a similar goal, and likely to impede each other. "Hero" groups may try to fight the highly present evils.
avatar
Zarhon
Smile Smile Smile
Smile Smile Smile

Gender : Male
Posts : 3531
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Ramsus on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:22 am

Hmmmm, well, I think it'd be best to make something original. With this many people interested it shouldn't really be hard to get ideas.

The issue with Fallout Equestria is, as you said, requires familiarity, which is requiring too much from that many people. Assuming all those people would like the things the fanfiction has done with the concept. I'm assuming option 5 falls under this same issue.
Regular Equestria well, it's probably not the best thing to do for something like this. Certainly won't be breaking any new ground as people already consider as many of their games as possible as fitting within the same headcannon.
The evil setting has the most promise but, I think it'd be better if good and evil weren't really intentionally required and you let groups fall into place as seems most organic.

So, yeah, I think it might be best to try to recruit people who would be interested in GMing and playing, see what people want to do (like I want to be a weirdo and go mostly solo or maybe as a duo with thematthew if he's interested) and ask for a bunch of ideas for the setting. Either the tone, races or whatnot involved, or other random ideas. Then you could take what you've got and try to make a setting out of it. That part can even all be public, in fact it should be so people know as many of the overall details as would make sense for people who live in that world. Then from there the overlord GM and the other GMs can discuss what to do with the individual campaigns themselves as far as what concepts to use, where to have things take place so cross-over of players is possible, and of course new stuff they come up with that players wouldn't know about. It goes without saying that ideas players come up with for more setting stuff that wouldn't be public should still be discussed as it'll give the GMs more stuff to work with. So that if someone wants to secretly be a robot in a setting supposedly without robots, other GMs might have them show up or something.

I mentioned the forming of groups before. I think mostly the best way to work things, after the setting is crafted, would be to have the players talk privately to the overlord GM about what they want to play. Then the overlord GM can discuss with the other GMs which campaigns to put which characters in. Of course considering things like people's requests to play a certain way or with certain people. After-all, the most important thing is for people to have fun.

Edit: It may be more fun to, in the scenario of equal amounts of good and evil characters, to have the groups be a mix, instead of whole teams of good or evil. I mean, it's not like they couldn't intentionally in character form teams later if they meet up.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 33
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Zarhon on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:07 am

Thought up some more concepts:

Ponies... IN SPACE!
- Player groups are space travelers/colonists, or generally inhabit a space setting.
- Intergalactic politics, mixing of pony and alien / humanoid races, allows for LL settings and pony tales to mix.
- Science and technology vary from group/setting, since aliens interference or individual knowledge of technology comes at a per-species basis.

Back through time
- Player groups are frequent time-hoppers, affecting past and/or future events.
- Meddling of one group may cause time paradoxes, or causality shifts / alterations for another group.
- The time travelers are immune to the time shifts.
- Allows for both "good" and "bad" groups - those altering events for personal gain, and those fixing the causality disturbances caused by it.

World of Chaos
- Discord altered the setting on a wide scale - most of the world is turned into his wild playground. He himself is no longer present, but his effects remain.
- Anything goes, nothing needs to make sense.
- Players can actively cause more chaos (chaotics) or remove it (order-bringers) through their actions. This will invariably affect the PCs in some way (because, well, chaos)

Twilight of the Dead
- World plagued by zombie/undead plague
- Players redirect (large, impossible hordes) to other groups to survive the odds, as well as attract trouble through each other's actions.
- This one is farily cooperative - the actions of one group can help all the others to survive (e.g. by powering up a power station).

Yarrr!
- One Piece-esque / Pirates of the Caribbean / Monkey Island setting, full of pirates, piracy, and rum.

World of Science!
- Everyone is a mad scientist genius of some sort, and their crazy inventions and creatures are all over the place.
- PCs ALL have semi-permanent versions of "crazy contraptions", modified to their specifications, with DM allowance.

Vampire: The masquerade
- Werewolf and vampiric factions and politics
- exclusively evil, dark PCs, groups, and moralities
avatar
Zarhon
Smile Smile Smile
Smile Smile Smile

Gender : Male
Posts : 3531
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Ramsus on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:40 am

Well, listing things in order of what appeals to me personally.

Vampire sounds like a really intriguing one and perfect for people having various moralities and ethics as well as the various already existing races as well as players making up their own.
Edit: I don't see the need to declare people can't be good in that setting. I've certainly played good World of Darkness characters. Admittedly, it's more fun if people are all over the alignment scale.

Space one works pretty well for this too. (Funny it should be mentioned, if you check my sig you'll see I'm working on a Star Wars system.)

The World of Chaos would probably need to be more like a world somewhat tainted by chaos in order for people to really do anything that was at all serious in tone and feel like there were any real stakes.

Already have a One Piece themed game on the forum. Zombies is.... I dunno, would take more effort to make enjoyable and "evil" becomes a lot more black and white. World of Science sorta forces everyone into characters that are less unique from each other than normal.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 33
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:58 am

I think it definitely needs a certain amount of casual approachability, which is why I'd vote for something that we know, using the show as a template, but divert from cannon. Basically start with a vanilla-world and add the flavour as the DMs go. There shouldn't be theme on the 'style' per say. Some people could DM under a sort of Slice of Life approach, while others can go for a full-blown exploration/adventure/quest. Some could work at a paranoia style campaign, and some might play a war campaign. All the events will add depth to the world.

Another thing to consider is timeline. We should come up with a sort of calendar system. Maybe one group is playing 100 years in the past, and another group is playing a campaign that revolves around that group's accomplishments.

I'm quite fond of world-building and it would be neat to see this spring into action. It would take a lot of work though.
avatar
SilentBelle
Monster Overseer
Monster Overseer

Gender : Male
Posts : 1162
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 30
Location : Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

View user profile http://www.fimfiction.net/user/SilentBelle

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Ramsus on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:08 pm

Well, we'd want to avoid games going on in different times I'd think. That'd defeat the point of being able to have players cross games and such.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 33
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:45 pm

Well it would be really hard to run it at the same time. Some groups will do a LOT in one day, while others will skip through days pretty quickly depending on the DM. The groups should move independently of one another so one groups pace shouldn't bog down another's.
avatar
SilentBelle
Monster Overseer
Monster Overseer

Gender : Male
Posts : 1162
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 30
Location : Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

View user profile http://www.fimfiction.net/user/SilentBelle

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  thematthew on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:08 pm

One of the easiest ways of making it work even if one group is being more active than another group that wants (or you want them to) interact with another roving band is to have a less structured definition of time in game. For example, with the exception of specific important dates (eg. Winter Wrap Up, XMAS, Thanksgiving, The Day The Birds Attacked), don't get specific about what day it is, or how much time has passed between adventures. I use this technique in my games specifically so that the players can kind of drive the direction of the game a little more when they feel they really need to.

That having been said, I would love to run something like this, as it has been a GMing challenge I've wanted to undertake for many years.

PS. Zarhon, I love the idea of doing a Chrono Trigger-esqe time travel campaign, where each group is trying to make time happen in specific ways, but I think that might stand better as a single group campaign unless people want to revisit their old adventures as their characters at that point in time when another group decides that that bank shouldn't have gotten robbed in the first place.
avatar
thematthew
Equestrian Honor Guard
Equestrian Honor Guard

Gender : Male
Posts : 588
Join date : 2012-11-26
Age : 33

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:12 pm

Good point about the vague time concept. Hadn't really thought of it that way. Ambiguity will allow for it to work much better with the characters between DMs.
avatar
SilentBelle
Monster Overseer
Monster Overseer

Gender : Male
Posts : 1162
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 30
Location : Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

View user profile http://www.fimfiction.net/user/SilentBelle

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  LoganAura on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:52 pm

I want to say that this sort of thing is extremely, interesting, but first things first should be 1.) finding players and 2.) getting enough of a set canon if personal setting/headcanon if established so that each of the DMs would be able to verify what has happened. And a lot of detailed notes on NPCs, actions taken by the parties, some sort of shared document readily editable by the DMs, things like that.

If this does happen, the biggest thing would be to get the DMs to have meshing headcanons. If one DM believes for example that the God King of ice is benevolent, and another believes they're a Dictator, those sorts of things would need to be fleshed out prior to the game starting.

_________________
Active Games:
AoH2, where the party is climbing an endless tower. Primarily because I've been sick during campaign days.
Ponysona 4, Where all heck's breaking lose
Saint Trotez: Where Snipe is paranoid and snarked at Snarl.
Satisfying Values (Hiatus): Mic is chasing after a Glitch.


Retired or inactive Games:
Too many to count.
avatar
LoganAura
Administrator
Administrator

Gender : Male
Posts : 2925
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 23
Location : Mass

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Ramsus on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:15 pm

That kind of stuff is why I think setting details needs to be established before recruiting players. Besides, if you recruit players a month or so before a game starts there's no guarantee they'll still be available by the time it does.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 33
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open World Roleplay - MMO Style RP

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum