Re: Utility Talent/Racial Trait overhaul/revamp - New "Abilities" system

ZamuelNow Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:19 am

I can see and agree with both concepts. Redundancy can be an issue (I figured that's why a few things didn't come back, I can see Element Master not returning despite feeling it serves a niche) yet we need more info on what should and shouldn't go into the new system from a design standpoint. There's also the issue of disagreeing with what actually does and doesn't cause an issue, especially when compared to other things already available in the update. I can't see Green Hooves as being more broken than Arcane Eye's upgrades without serious creativity.

Xel Unknown Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:07 am

Green Hooves problem might be from it being GM dependent on just what reactions it gets to doing such a thing with plants...

Hayatecooper Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:03 am

> There's also the issue of disagreeing with what actually does and doesn't cause an issue, especially when compared to other things already available in the update. I can't see Green Hooves as being more broken than Arcane Eye's upgrades without serious creativity.

That's because Green hooves doesn't have anywhere NEAR the sheer combo potential that Arcane Eye does, lets' look at both talents.

green hooves:

Compared to the Arcane Eye Tree

Arcane Eye Tree:

Straight of that bat you can see that these are two very different things. Green hooves is a stand a lone talent, it's not built to be combo's(Well with as specific things) and it does some pretty fun things on it's own Revitalizing plants(I Revitalize poison joke, or combo it with a character who can detach limbs via mechanical and really mess with people, can also be used for regrowing trees to make them climbable or good enough material to create bridges(Combo's with fabricate 'goodbye rotting wood') also the basics of revitalizing food, water, saps, flowers for medications and what have you.

The accelerated growth can also help with all of the above, but allows for stupid things like poison ivy traps, tree to destroy houses, instant fruit for a starving town, really really annoying the dog who keeps pooping on your flower bed) and all kinda of sily things. While Green Hooves lets you do a lot of cool things, it;s not broken, Arcane Eye however gives you one thing is assuredly is.

Arcane Eye
>You can move the eye up to a hundred feet away from you, it can fly and move through walls.
>Archmage’s Eye (3)
Prerequisite: Perceptive Eye
You are considered to have line of effect for the use of utility talents through your Arcane Eye in addition to line of sight – effectively meaning that you can use your utility talents through your Arcane Eye.

have fun being able to use ANY of your talents at a range of up to 100 feet from you, through walls, with decent perception bonus's, undetected. This combined with Teleports "Hi, steal items k thanks" IS CRAZY. I mean, it's begging you for a master thief character(Which.. I may have done..). Stand outside home, scout around with invisible eye, find shiny, teleport into your possession, leave. Also, just the amount of utilities that don't have a range allows this to be pretty abused. (I should build a character that utilizes this with things like Dirty look or Pyrotechnics, heck nothing stops you using this to just RANDOMLY shove dazzling wings on someone..for whatever reason you would do this. Also combos great with Telekenisis, and Telepathy(Note that it says creatures you can see in 1000 feet).

So, Zameul you are right, Green Hooves while strong is NOT more broken then the Arcane Eye upgrades.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:02 am

Haven't people been playtesting these talents and traits for a long time already? That's sort of the point of open beta.

However, as for custom-porting, it's easy.

A utility talent is worth 3 points under the new system. 1 trait-point for racial traits is worth 2 points. You can port anything over as a DM and then tweak the cost to be balanced as you see fit. It just might not be officially endorsed.

ZamuelNow Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:53 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Haven't people been playtesting these talents and traits for a long time already? That's sort of the point of open beta.

Most have been playing these campaigns...as campaigns. I think some of the purely combat campaigns have sometimes acted as beta but not the full storylines. There's any number of reasons ranging from being mid campaign when things were added to the system to simply not having a character concept in mind that can use a specific utility. Plus, there's the matter of varied perceptions and self fulfilling prophesies. "This looks weak so I won't use it" and thus things don't get used or tested. Probably half the reason why the disparity in the skills went on with little discussion for so long. While I fully understand you are busy with various projects, I invite you to join a pbp campaign as a player. Perhaps seeing things from a different lens might help in viewing player opinions on some things.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:30 am

1) I was responding to Xel's post saying that we should playtest anything being considered for removal (for some reason it didn't tell me there had been new posts after that, which created some confusion as to what I was responding to). I found the implication that this would somehow be different from what has already occurred to be strange. Of course, specific discussion of specific abilities that people feel should be cut or added would be great too. More perspectives are very helpful, we'll just ultimately have to make some tough decisions to cut the chaff.

2) Not everything that is currently absent from the abilities doc is not going to be added later. Perhaps things already in it might be removed too. Phil just put together enough of a document to playtest characters with. My post was just to clarify that not everything should be automatically added into the new system.

Note: One ability that I like a lot as flavor and uniqueness but that causes LOTS of headaches for DMs? Cursefield. I honestly don't think that should exist as an ability. It just makes DM lives difficult and can ruin great cinematic moments. The cool factor is high, but the headache factor is terrible.

Xel Unknown Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:41 pm

No... Not "playtest" but actually TELL US stuff that might be on the choping block in a new topic built for such a chat. We might be able to help fix whatever issue that you feel is big enough to worrent removal. Or at least try to agrue for why not to remove something. You know how some people might feel like the Devs just do whatever they feel like doing don't care anything about us the Players and fans of their system? The fact that you all seem to not want to come forward with us your "helpers" here on a huge issue like removal of ANYTHING in this system just be something you guys just do in privet putting and just wait for the fireworks of us getting upset that something got removed without us having any way to avoid such a thing or even play a part in seeing if removal was needed.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:56 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:You know how some people might feel like the Devs just do whatever they feel like doing don't care anything about us the Players and fans of their system? The fact that you all seem to not want to come forward with us your "helpers" here on a huge issue like removal of ANYTHING in this system...

1) Read my above post please, in which I specifically agree that discussing these things with you all is a good idea.

2) I really couldn't care less about the conspiracy-theorist people that think we spend dozens of hours of our time trying to improve the game... But don't care about the players and fans of it. What these people think we do this work for, or have these long discussions for, I have no idea. Maybe they think there's an evil-free-rpg branch of the Illuminati. All I do know is that whenever I hear these ludicrous statements, it makes me want to work on the game less.

Xel Unknown Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:52 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Xel Unknown wrote:You know how some people might feel like the Devs just do whatever they feel like doing don't care anything about us the Players and fans of their system? The fact that you all seem to not want to come forward with us your "helpers" here on a huge issue like removal of ANYTHING in this system...
1) Read my above post please, in which I specifically agree that discussing these things with you all is a good idea.

2) I really couldn't care less about the conspiracy-theorist people that think we spend dozens of hours of our time trying to improve the game... But don't care about the players and fans of it. What these people think we do this work for, or have these long discussions for, I have no idea. Maybe they think there's an evil-free-rpg branch of the Illuminati. All I do know is that whenever I hear these ludicrous statements, it makes me want to work on the game less.

My apologizes... I guess I must've somehow missed that. Totally nat-1ed my sense check on reading today.

Also I am equally sorry about bring up that topic again.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:54 pm

No worries. It's cool.

Xel Unknown Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:52 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Note: One ability that I like a lot as flavor and uniqueness but that causes LOTS of headaches for DMs? Cursefield. I honestly don't think that should exist as an ability. It just makes DM lives difficult and can ruin great cinematic moments. The cool factor is high, but the headache factor is terrible.

I gotta agree. Cursefield/Jinx! is mostly a "troll the party" power at best I find. Only time I've ever seen it used either in a means to mess with teh party or this one time to will a race, by basically nothing can catch them because NAT-1S FOR EVERYONE other then the user of the talent. And other then that, what use can you pull out of a talent that just is basic "bad luck happen and all skill checks are auto-nat-1s other then one person who can actually roll now" I will honestly support that one's removal.

Zarhon Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:58 pm

Yeah, it's very tricky to implement, but at the same time extremely powerful and nigh-uncounterable. I just recently used it to essentially dominate seven different demons in a ping-pong match, with what was essentially a retired old guy. That was an example of a fun and extremely team-helpful use (though it likely irritated the DM). Other uses, though, generally end in tears for anyone but its user.

The main issues of it:

a) Anything attempted fails for anyone - Party members get screwed over more often than not, and the use of the ability is thusly limited to "extreme emergencies" or "I want to screw everyone over", whilst the DM is either forced to declare actions NPCs do as not using skill checks, or hoping the player fails his own checks, or indirectly screwing him over via his allies.

b) Extremely easy for a player to essentially bully their own team - when loyalty is questioned or the player is simply a traitor / bastard, one use of this ability lets them become completely unchallenged by their entire team. They can even couple it with other abilities to give what are usually hard-to-pull-off abilities a guaranteed success (example: Mind control destiny abilities, "he did it", theft attempts...).

c) *No* counters, other than avoiding the effects entirely. Even if you get a nat20 cutie mark critical, you still fail. Even if you have nat1 rerolls, the skill check reroll still fails. Even if you have "It's whining", you still fail, as the nat1-to-nat20 is once again treated as a automatic failure due to a "lingering, re-applied" effect. The only hope is that the player using it does so badly, or the seven minutes run out. It certainly needs some wording to allow for nat1 prevention to work.

d) Surprisingly, the ability does not actually require objects and other 'potential to screw up' objects and terrain and such to malfunction or self-destruct around you - it's only affects creatures that can do stuff, not for stuff like machinery and such. It's flavor suggests such things but few DMs actually implement it.

Now, I don't think it should be removed completely, as it can still be an awesome ability when used in a not-jerk method - just that its more questionable aspects should be minimized. A rework that is less horrid against your own allies, for example, or that gives the player using Jinx a strong discouragement from using it for troll purposes, or eliminate that possibility entirely.

Another idea would be to combine it with "dirty look" - essentially, make it a prerequisite of dirty look that makes a creature fail skill checks.

Rework A) First ally check is a freebie:

Rework B) Allies just get penalties (AKA talent spec upgrade):

Rework C) Single-target "creature fails all things" prerequisite:

Rework D) Karma effect:

Rework E) Coin Toss gamble:

Rework F) Seven minutes to disaster:

Rework G) Allies exempt, but caster becomes helpless afterwards:

TLDR version:
- Jinx needs to be easily/plausibly countered by allies, or have a huge discouragement from being used against allies.
- Have its wording let it affect more than just skill checks (surroundings, objects, etc) - this should be "major disasters all around you" mode, not just "everyone sucks but me".
- Make its drawbacks less severe against allies so it's easier to use (less accidental disasters, or it can lead to more damage than not using it would).
- Potentially apply a drawback to the player (karma or fixed penalty based).

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:36 am

Great thoughts and awesome detail. However, I think one reason it hasn't been an even bigger problem to DMs is that it affects your allies too - so you're discouraged from using it. If the drawbacks were less severe, I think the bigger issues with it would only be accentuated. Also, having the terrain explode around you to, or similarly be destroyed, sounds like it'd cause more DM headaches instead of fewer.

ZamuelNow Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:12 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Maybe they think there's an evil-free-rpg branch of the Illuminati.

That...might be kinda fun actually... Twisted Evil

...

On a more serious note, I think there's issues of tone and "distance". It's hard to read people at times on the internet so contentious issues get ignited rather than quelled. I've wondered about a few wording choices during discussions. Stuff I arch my eyebrow at but can sweep aside since I know nothing was meant may seem far worse to others. As far as distance, well... there's any number of things ranging from variance in design experience to "from the top vs out in the field" aspects of using the system seem to be where a lot of drastic splits in opinion come from. Stuff sometimes feels like it comes from nowhere to us obviously comes from somewhere but we don't get to see it. I've mentioned it before but I'd actually enjoy hearing about some of those campaign scenarios since it brings perspective.

I think Jinx! has a lot of thematically cool things you can do with it that really depends on campaign structure. It requires a GM that actually rolls for some NPCs and I'm still shocked at how uncommon that is here. For my revamp thoughts:

Rework H) Range Decrease:

Rework I) Reduced Time:

**Philadelphus** Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:46 am

@Fury, re: Changeling's Trickery: I was just going to put up a suggestion I had for it, when literally as I was writing this post I was given the idea of making it into an upgrade tree based off Alter Ego. I think it's an interesting idea, but it'll take me a few days to really digest it and think it over. I'm excited by it though.

ZamuelNow wrote:They might not get mindblowing responses but I'd hate to see boons removed outright. The concept of gaining things as a team isn't a poor idea in itself.
It's a fantastic idea in theory, but in practice most people have found them to be not as fun as expected. This could really warrant its own discussion, and if you want to discuss it it might be good to bring it elsewhere (such as a new thread).
-Element Master disappeared. I'm assuming it was in the process of being moved and accidentally got deleted? Hadn't been added actually, but it does fit the new Elementalist category so I've added it back in.
-As far as a new Fateweaver category, I'd suggest the following (and their upgrades) be moved to it:
Fateweaver Candidates:
Added a new Fateweaver category and moved all your suggestions there except for Heart of Courage and Adept, which I felt didn't quite fit, since they're passive effects, not things the player triggers actively (which is what the idea of a Fateweave suggests to me).

Oh, and there's a new Companion category with the Companion abilities, with a clarifying re-write of Companion thanks to Pingcode.

-Suggesting Call Out be moved to the Woodsman category. I agree, moved.
-What's your opinion of the proposed rewording of Forcefield's description? (above post) Likewise wondering about bringing back Many Tongues in a new form and revamping Found It?
Forcefield: Ah, I see, it's basically a clarification. How does this sound for the final sentence? "When cast, the user makes an Arcana check which becomes the DC for shattering or dispelling the force field, either via a physical skill such as an Athletics check or by using a magical ability such as Dispel Magic."

For Found It!, no one's expressed any disagreement with your proposed version. If I don't hear any soon I'll put it in, though I may tweak it slightly – we'll see.

Many Tongues, I need to think about some more. It's in a slightly strange place, because Pony Tales doesn't really have any established language differences, due mostly to the show generally showing everyone speaking pretty much the same language (except animals, but that's a minor case). I almost feel like it should either not be included, and it just be tacitly understood that Everyone Speaks English, or else it needs some kind of expansion where there's a little more stucture laid out (like with your Linguist proposal). Summary: I'm not going to put it back in just yet while I consider how to handle the larger question of multiple languages in Pony Tales. You can, of course, always houserule it in in any campaigns for a cost of three points in the meantime.

-Dazzling Wings is still using the old Brawn/Precision wording. Fixed, thanks for catching.
-Requesting a return of the Green Hands/Hooves, Minimize Sunderblade, and Audiomancy utilities. Noted. Not gonna promise anything, but these could potentially come back.
-Considering some of the discussion in the errata thread, I'm going to make an official request for adding the magic interrupts for the other two attributes. Both could stand to have more abilities and the incoming revamp of Magecraft lessens one of the original concerns with the concept.
Magic Interrupt Talents:
Noted. After you corrected me about Yee-Haw! I don't really have an issue with these. I'd like to get an opinion from Dan first though.
...
I can't see Green Hooves as being more broken than Arcane Eye's upgrades without serious creativity.
The problem isn't so much Green Hooves being broken, as being vague and potentially prone to cause quarreling over just what its effect are. I mean, I like the basic idea of it – Zarhon based it off a custom destiny I wrote called Master Gardener which I used in our first campaign together – it's just...what exactly is "a single stage" of plant growth? And how often does the ability to cure plants come in handy, after all?

I wouldn't mind bringing it back because it is a rather unique ability, but it would need some definition/clarification first. Maybe a sort of "druid/plant friend" set of abilities...

@Hayatecooper: I'm more and more considering removing the Item Teleport upgrade. It doesn't really serve any special purpose, I added it on a whim without much thought, and now it's pretty much exclusively being used to come up with ways to to troll PCs and NPCs alike (not just here), which isn't exactly what we want to foster.

And on that note, regarding Jinx!, something I just noticed: we actually have a similar ability to Jinx, Challenge Fate, which costs twice as many points, still costs a Magic Point, and only affects a single roll of a single creature. At the very least, given the existence of Challenge Fate, Jinx is horribly undercosted. I'm perfectly fine with cutting it or redesigning it.

For comparison:

Challenge Fate:

Hmmm...maybe if Challenge Fate was simply "A d20 is rolled and you dislike the result..."

Fury of the Tempest Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:49 am

Philadelphus wrote:@Fury, re: Changeling's Trickery: I was just going to put up a suggestion I had for it, when literally as I was writing this post I was given the idea of making it into an upgrade tree based off Alter Ego. I think it's an interesting idea, but it'll take me a few days to really digest it and think it over. I'm excited by it though.

Awesome. Can't wait to see what its like!

Also, I rather like the idea of the Item Teleport upgrade. I mean yeah, I guess it can be used for trolling. But at the same time, if you very good at teleporting, then why shouldn't you be able to teleport items instead of people?

ZamuelNow Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:20 pm

Philadelphus wrote:Forcefield: Ah, I see, it's basically a clarification. How does this sound for the final sentence? "When cast, the user makes an Arcana check which becomes the DC for shattering or dispelling the force field, either via a physical skill such as an Athletics check or by using a magical ability such as Dispel Magic."

Sounds good.

Philadelphus wrote:Many Tongues, I need to think about some more. It's in a slightly strange place, because Pony Tales doesn't really have any established language differences, due mostly to the show generally showing everyone speaking pretty much the same language (except animals, but that's a minor case). I almost feel like it should either not be included, and it just be tacitly understood that Everyone Speaks English, or else it needs some kind of expansion where there's a little more stucture laid out (like with your Linguist proposal). Summary: I'm not going to put it back in just yet while I consider how to handle the larger question of multiple languages in Pony Tales. You can, of course, always houserule it in in any campaigns for a cost of three points in the meantime.

It's worth pointing out that G4 does have an explicitly bilingual character, Zecora. I think one of the main updates needed for Many Tongues is to include reading along with speaking since that greatly increases its worth for things like reading ancient texts.

The problem isn't so much Green Hooves being broken, as being vague and potentially prone to cause quarreling over just what its effect are. I mean, I like the basic idea of it – Zarhon based it off a custom destiny I wrote called Master Gardener which I used in our first campaign together – it's just...what exactly is "a single stage" of plant growth? And how often does the ability to cure plants come in handy, after all?

I wouldn't mind bringing it back because it is a rather unique ability, but it would need some definition/clarification first. Maybe a sort of "druid/plant friend" set of abilities...

Hayatecooper did a pretty good job of pointing out the various things that can be done with it. Healing plants combos relatively well with being able to talk to them as well. "Single stage" might be a tad too specific but perhaps that could be ironed out in sidebar examples.

And on that note, regarding Jinx!, something I just noticed: we actually have a similar ability to Jinx, Challenge Fate, which costs twice as many points, still costs a Magic Point, and only affects a single roll of a single creature. At the very least, given the existence of Challenge Fate, Jinx is horribly undercosted. I'm perfectly fine with cutting it or redesigning it.

I entirely forgot about the option to simply alter the cost. That might be one way to handle some of its issues.

**Philadelphus** Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:38 am

So, I haven't had time to fully flesh out the ideas yet, but here's what's on my mind vis-a-vis changeling-type abilities:

Level 1: cost 3 points, allow you morph into a single target race you choose when you take it. You lose access to any abilities you have that aren't Core abilities of that race. Basically Alter Ego.

Level 2 (requires level 1): cost ~2-3 points, allow you to morph into any medium-sized intelligent creature you've seen. You normally lose access to all abilities that aren't Core abilities of that race, but you can spend a Magic Point when transforming to allow you to keep any Suggested abilities of that race you already have – and even gain access to any Core abilities you don't already have.

Level 3 (requires level 2): cost ~2-3 points, allow you to morph into any medium-sized intelligent creature you've seen. You automatically gain any Core abilities of that race that you don't have, and only lose access to abilities that aren't Suggested abilities.

Possible 4th option, requiring level 2 or 3 for a cost of 2 points: whenever you transform, you may choose one of your abilities worth 3 points or less. You retain access to this ability, even if you would normally lose it. Could possibly be taken more than once.

ZamuelNow wrote:
Philadelphus wrote:Many Tongues, I need to think about some more. It's in a slightly strange place, because Pony Tales doesn't really have any established language differences, due mostly to the show generally showing everyone speaking pretty much the same language (except animals, but that's a minor case). I almost feel like it should either not be included, and it just be tacitly understood that Everyone Speaks English, or else it needs some kind of expansion where there's a little more stucture laid out (like with your Linguist proposal). Summary: I'm not going to put it back in just yet while I consider how to handle the larger question of multiple languages in Pony Tales. You can, of course, always houserule it in in any campaigns for a cost of three points in the meantime.
It's worth pointing out that G4 does have an explicitly bilingual character, Zecora. I think one of the main updates needed for Many Tongues is to include reading along with speaking since that greatly increases its worth for things like reading ancient texts.

I'm curious, what do you mean by explicitly bilingual? Do you mean in part of the non-show canon? Because I'm afraid I'm not aware of what you mean (I genuinely am curious to know if there's something I missed).

I mean, additional languages are definitely confirmed by Applebloom speaking French in Cutie Pox. Other languages exist in the MLP verse, we just don't get to see them most of the time because it wouldn't be very interesting for the target age group to get a bunch of subtitles (especially when they might not be able to read yet Smile

). Many Tongues should probably get back in in some form. I'll take a look at it when I have time.

The problem isn't so much Green Hooves being broken, as being vague and potentially prone to cause quarreling over just what its effect are. I mean, I like the basic idea of it – Zarhon based it off a custom destiny I wrote called Master Gardener which I used in our first campaign together – it's just...what exactly is "a single stage" of plant growth? And how often does the ability to cure plants come in handy, after all?

I wouldn't mind bringing it back because it is a rather unique ability, but it would need some definition/clarification first. Maybe a sort of "druid/plant friend" set of abilities...
Hayatecooper did a pretty good job of pointing out the various things that can be done with it. Healing plants combos relatively well with being able to talk to them as well. "Single stage" might be a tad too specific but perhaps that could be ironed out in sidebar examples.

Indeed. As I said before, I like the idea of plant-abilities – they fit especially well for earth pony farmers for that "growing the food" motif – but I agree that they need some good definition to avoid potential arguments. I'd like to get Green Hooves back into the system, it'll just need a bit of editing for clarification first.

And on that note, regarding Jinx!, something I just noticed: we actually have a similar ability to Jinx, Challenge Fate, which costs twice as many points, still costs a Magic Point, and only affects a single roll of a single creature. At the very least, given the existence of Challenge Fate, Jinx is horribly undercosted. I'm perfectly fine with cutting it or redesigning it.
I entirely forgot about the option to simply alter the cost. That might be one way to handle some of its issues.

Yeah, that's one of the great benefits of a unified point-buy system. Something too powerful for its cost? Simply up the cost!

Though since my last post I had a chance to think about this some more, and make the following comparison:

Against the Gods: costs 10 points (one of the two most expensive abilities at this point), and once per day allows you to make one die roll (by the DM) a critical failure.
Challenge Fate: costs 6 points, costs a Magic Point, and allows you to make one die roll (by the DM) a critical failure.
Jinx!: costs 3 points, costs a Magic Point, and allows you to make every die roll within a four-dimensional volume of 7 minutes * 4/3 * pi * (70 feet)³ into a critical failure (except your own).

When compared this way, it looks like Jinx is a bit underpriced for its power. We definitely need to change something – whether that's nerfing Jinx's power, increasing its cost, both, or cutting it altogether.

Fury of the Tempest Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:58 am

Hmmm... it seems like a good idea, but a big problem is that it relies on that core/suggested abilities of yours. And currently, you couldn't think of any core abilities for quite a few species, like earth ponies. So in order for it to work, each race will need core abilities of similar racial points.

Also, just on a flavour level... it feels weird that when you transform, you can suddenly lose training, or the ability to be good at multipule skills (Applejack of all skills)

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:19 am

Hate to say it, but I support cutting Jinx. My issue with it isn't its power, that can be changed, but rather how difficult it makes life for DMs. It's not just that it can mess with plans, but rather destroy a situation entirely without a clear DM counter (ha! there is an anti-jinx-field around my base!) and is extremely hard for many new and old DMs to figure out what a whole group of NPCs critical-failing will result in.

Overall, I'd say it makes life far too hard for DMs. The main goal of a gaming system is to make the DM's life easier (otherwise, why do they even need a system when they could be using freeform) so they can focus their energy on making the adventure more fun.

Thoughts?

Fury of the Tempest Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:50 am

You have my agreement on that. Jinx should be removed.

Both from here and LoL, Razz

Zarhon Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:55 am

Well, cutting it entirely seems to much - why not rework it so that it's less of a hassle for DMs, but at the same time fun to use?

Maybe instead of causing nat1s for everypony near, it instead works to summon a "pinkie promise cosmic retribution" against anyone trying to directly/indirectly harm you, along with a passive "area of effect" penalty to most other creatures.

Essentially, it turns you into a "cartoon black cat" that everyone would be best avoiding - an "ultimatum" version of Pinkie Promise. And to make it easier for DM to work the more "improv" aspects of it, creatures can (but don't have to) become aware of the "jinx effect" - leaving a choice of creative events or avoidance in favor of the PCs.

Jinx - Black Cat Mode Rework:

I mean, "cosmic retribution" is already a thing present in Pinkie Promise, but that aspect of it is extremely unlikely to occur (outside of NPC stupidity, or PC carelessness).

ZamuelNow Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:44 pm

Philadelphus wrote:-changeling stuff-

What would this mean for Alter-Ego itself? I think the current "you're you but look different" works well for its own purpose and would hate to lose that.

I'm curious, what do you mean by explicitly bilingual? Do you mean in part of the non-show canon? Because I'm afraid I'm not aware of what you mean (I genuinely am curious to know if there's something I missed).

I mean, additional languages are definitely confirmed by Applebloom speaking French in Cutie Pox.

I was pointing out the existence of other languages on the show, since Zecora speaks Pony/English/Common and Zebra/Swahili, but wound up being a little wordy. I actually forgot about that bit in Cutie Pox.

As far as Jinx!, I feel the reason it's hard for some GMs to deal with is explicitly because it's powerful. Removing its bite alters it greatly and I think a number of valid suggestions have been made that we may be making headway on how to restructure it. Something I realized with the comparison to Against the Gods/Challenge Fate is that it's not actually an interrupt. An action already in play (pressing the button to a deathray satellite, intimidation check, etc) actually has a fair chance of still going off and if it's something inanimate the power won't affect it anyways. I'm putting forth two different concepts for an update.

Jinx Restructure 1:

Jinx Restructure 2:

While the wording could be tidied up, I also like Zarhon's rework above.

Zarhon Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:01 pm

@ "green hooves"...

Green Hooves 'stages' explanation:

@ Challenge Fate / Against the Gods / Dirty Look

Awesome text:

ZamuelNow Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:36 pm

Zarhon wrote:It also has the problem that all the other mechanics outright forbid - "next skill check", which is banned due to being laughably easily abused by "spamming" skill checks until a thing triggers or goes away.

You can use "dirty look" on a creature, and then it wastes the penalty on something trivial (perception check), or doesn't resort to skills (making it useless).

I gotta ask...what GM does this? It comes off like pretty blatantly breaking the fourth wall and a massive abuse of player trust. It's something that exists in a "GM vs Player" mindset but is mostly impossible in a "NPC vs PC" aspect since the characters don't know rolls and other mechanics exist. I'm really curious since I just realized this is the logic behind most arguments against Pinkie Promise.

Sponsored content