The Hooved Races

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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:47 pm

Wait a second....Stairc...

The issue you want to avoid is the potential for Changelings to mix and match and create broken combos right? But...Dilettante does the exact opposite of that. It costs them a Utility they would otherwise put in something that would normally not be race restricted from them and then allows them to have all four of their other starting Utilities be a combo of whatever Pegasi, Unicorn, Giraffe, and (ride the) Walrus they can conjure up. I don't have a problem with that added versatility because I don't actually think there will ever actually be any broken combos but, if that's what you're trying to avoid that seems like exactly the wrong way to do it.

With my template they would still only start with 1 other race's Utility. So even if we find say a three utility talent combo that's broken it would take them till level 3 (assuming we get a Utility every level). With Dilettante they could just start with it. (And it would be practically the only thing they had which would mean they'd want to use it all the more.)

I think you got too caught up with trying to punish a potential problem where it would be better to avoid or at least delay it. (Also, we do have GMs who can just say "No, you can't make that combo. You know why.")
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  XandZero2 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:32 am

I might be late to the comments guys, but I love the new Hippogriff speed ability. It just looks like a fun option, and a great escape mechanic in a pinch (especially if you brought a healer along for the ride for those necessary pit-stops).

If abilities that damage the user are okay, I might have to consider that for the Zebra template. I still really want that random table element, as I feel it would just make Zebras the "kooky fun" race to play (and after the Rhyming ability, I think kooky fun should be the aim here).

Okay, here's another draft of Supernaturals:


Supernaturals
There's a reason many ponies consider Zebra's enchanters. It's called potion-making (and it's all-natural, so natural, it's super)! Zebra culture is steeped in ancient potion-making traditions, the only problem is that Zebras don't always know what they've made until it's done. Once a day you can make a potion with a random effect. Roll a D20 and consult the following table. In all cases, effects last until the end of the day (and yes, you can use Bridle Gossip on this roll):


1. Epic Fail! - You not only fail, but you do so epiclly! There's a spectacular explosion that leaves you physically scarred (GM decides how). Take 1D10 damage, but on the bright side, you have a story to tell your grandchildren.
2-5. Not Quite so Epic Fail - You still fail, but not quite as epiclly. Congrats. Take 1D10 damage from the explosion.
6-7. Fail - Minor explosion. Nothing out of the ordinary. Take 1D6 damage.
8. It's a Dud! - nothing happens, or the potion explodes harmlessly in your face (take your pick).
9. Impath Potion - You or an ally gains Telepathy
10. 3D Draught - You or an ally gains Mirage
11. Sound FX Potion - You or an ally gains Echo
12. Delivery Draught - You or an ally gains Spike, Take a Letter
13. Hocus Pocus Potion (HPP) - You or an ally gains It's Witchcraft
14. Weight of Elephant - You or an ally gains Immovable
15. Psychic Sense - You or an ally gains Detect Minds
16. Strength of Stone - You or an ally gains Strengthen Substance
17. Squishiness of Squash - You or an ally gains Weaken Substance
18. Flame On - You or an ally gains Pyrotechnics
19. Night Crawler - You or an ally gains Phase Step
20. Heart's Desire - Choose any one effect.


Thoughts guys?
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Flutterknight on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:38 am

Ramsus wrote:(ride the) Walrus

I laughed when I read that. ^_^ (This laughter brought to you by Fishy Joe's.)

The rest actually sounds like it could be a valid concern, though I know next to nothing about the actual mechanics, I usually just help with ideas and fluff when I have any useful input in these threads. XD
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:48 am

Ah, it always makes my day ten minute interval when someone appreciates one of my stupid jokes. sunny

*shrug* We all have our talents and hobbies. The thing that I like most about being part of this is that we all bring something different to the (virtual) table.

Xand, I dunno about permanent scarring. It's never fun to have a random die roll force a permanent change on your character. Also...damage out of combat....kinda meaningless isn't it? Btw, for Heart's Desire do you mean any effect on the table or can I use it to summon Great Cthulhu? =P ("Stop your plans sinister foe or I will....nuke the world!" "Hey, I'm supposed to be the villain here!")
Edit: Since all the other effects are non-combat related the bad effects should be too. Like -10 to your next skill check or less abusable, one of the GM's choosing. Also, a good detrimental effect would be hallucinations. Or mistakenly causing you to believe the potion it does something it doesn't. (Possibly still actually does one of the effects on the table but, not the one your character thinks it does. Or you just don't know at all.)
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:05 am

Ramsus wrote:Wait a second....Stairc...

The issue you want to avoid is the potential for Changelings to mix and match and create broken combos right?

Not exactly. It's just that they're already pretty much on-par with other races and giving them unlimited utility options without some drawback would make them a bit too powerful for comfort.

Given a chance, I *want* to encourage players to have ways to take racial utility talents. I don't like restricting any utility talents by race, but you kind of have to in order to elegantly serve the canon. I'd like to make everything Everypony if possible.

That's why I want to take advantage of the Changeling's chance to let you build with those cool combinations. But having unlimited versatility on top of their already-very-useful racials would make them a bit too strong. Hence the two ways to deal with that, choosing the talents of one race or being able to mix and match as much as you want... In exchange for one less utility talent.

Losing one utility talent is not a big deal. Pegasai have to sink 2 utility talents into their flying in order to be even as good at flying as they are at walking.

I know it sucks to give up cool utility talents, but this is a very elegant way to handle the options and enables lots of changeling concepts.

Also, if you've checked the leveling system, you'll have seen that you only gain an additional utility talent once every 3 levels. Levels 2, 5 and 8 come with an additional utility talent.

If you want to write up your option again, making it as elegant and simple as the current templates, I'd be happy to take another look at it.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:18 am

Once every 3 levels? Ouch. That's way more costly than I thought it was. Don't suppose I can persuade you to change that to once every second level? (I was actually assuming one almost every level just because of how much stuff the Mane 6 seem to be able to do and I figured they weren't yet max level since the show isn't over yet and they're bound to do more stuff than they have so far.) Though I suppose this is the wrong thread for that discussion...

Well, I'm not sure where the other templates are so...

Alternate Changeling Template

All Changelings gain the following:

Copycat (since the current version is no longer using this ability name)

At character creation you may choose for one of your Utility talents to be from any race's list. Every time you gain a new Utility talent from a level you may choose from any race's list. You may never have more Utility talents from other race's lists than the number of utilities you've gained from leveling up + 1.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:34 am

Ramsus wrote:Once every 3 levels? Ouch. That's way more costly than I thought it was. Don't suppose I can persuade you to change that to once every second level? (I was actually assuming one almost every level just because of how much stuff the Mane 6 seem to be able to do and I figured they weren't yet max level since the show isn't over yet and they're bound to do more stuff than they have so far.) Though I suppose this is the wrong thread for that discussion...

Well, I'm not sure where the other templates are so...

Alternate Changeling Template

All Changelings gain the following:

Copycat (since the current version is no longer using this ability name)

At character creation you may choose for one of your Utility talents to be from any race's list. Every time you gain a new Utility talent from a level you may choose from any race's list. You may never have more Utility talents from other race's lists than the number of utilities you've gained from leveling up + 1.

1) Yeah, that's to be talked about in the level-up thread. But, instead of utility talents, different boosts will open up. Boons and Destinies. Boons are great for building the roleplaying side a Destinies make utility talents look paltry by comparison. I'm pretty sure you'll still enjoy your toys.

2) This version of Copycat is fine, but it's still pretty clunky. You even have a formula in there, a simple formula but still too clunky. I could polish it to make it smoother of course. Could be a fine third Changeling template. The versatility offered by it is kind of strangely weighted so that this is pretty weak early on (1/5 of your talents can break the rules) and very, very versatile later on (4/9 of your talents can break the rules). This would make it the one trait I'm aware of to have such a delayed reaction... And I don't really like that for the system. I'd rather something that's as cool at level 1 as it is at level 10.

However, these are minor complaints - since I can work out the polishing. But it still doesn't look very smooth to me.

Why exactly do you want this version so much anyway? It would take you a level before you get a neat 2 races option and till level 5 before you could combine 3 different races. Is it really just that losing a utility talent is unacceptable?
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:56 am

Well yeah, losing a Utility is pretty bad in my eyes (nobody else does for any reason and Unicorns even gain one), especially if you only gain that few of them.

Well, in designing it I was thinking about them not overlapping what other races do right away and more build into that kind of versatility over time. I figured this would not discourage any particular build type for changelings (focus on versatility, on other race's stuff, changeling stuff, or anypony stuff) and wouldn't punish them in one way or another for other build types being possible even if that wasn't what that character would choose to do. If they focused on say flying they'd still be behind the flying races on that because, yeah, their race isn't mainly a flying race and that seems like a much more post-PC sort of thing to focus on for a changeling than pre-PC changelings would typically do. But, eventually they could be just as good, meanwhile they'd still have other stuff they did because of their four other Utilities that would keep them different from the flying focused guys. And if they wanted to grab stuff from all sorts of different races, the slower and lower total amount would prevent the chance of ridiculous broken combos.

Sure, in some setup where I didn't have to think about "hey, won't that just make Changelings better than everyone else?" I would just say "just pick whatever the heck utilities you want all the time". But, yeah, that'd be unfair to races who one of their racial features is getting access to race specific utilities. The delayed nature is the cost they'd pay for access to everyone's racial utilities and this doesn't involve a cost that harms builds that could care less about other races utilities. Yes, this means you don't have starting Changelings who are as good at flying as Pegasi but, Pegasi can't shapeshift so, that's completely fine in my view. If you wanted a character whose starting focus was flying really well you probably wouldn't have picked Changeling anyway would you? But, you might want a Changeling with their other stuff whose secondary focus was flying. Or who just really wanted Awesomeness and Apple-Jack of All Trades or such (or Sonic Rainboom, Crazy Contraption, and Witchcraft for the total oddball character. I don't want to think too hard about what they'd want to do with that particular combination.)

So, yeah, it's a little restrictive but, it's not punishing and it promotes versatility which in my mind is one of the main keywords that should be kept in mind for Changelings (just like how whackyness is for Zebras).
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:22 am

Ramsus wrote:Well yeah, losing a Utility is pretty bad in my eyes (nobody else does for any reason and Unicorns even gain one), especially if you only gain that few of them.

Well, in designing it I was thinking about them not overlapping what other races do right away and more build into that kind of versatility over time. I figured this would not discourage any particular build type for changelings (focus on versatility, on other race's stuff, changeling stuff, or anypony stuff) and wouldn't punish them in one way or another for other build types being possible even if that wasn't what that character would choose to do. If they focused on say flying they'd still be behind the flying races on that because, yeah, their race isn't mainly a flying race and that seems like a much more post-PC sort of thing to focus on for a changeling than pre-PC changelings would typically do. But, eventually they could be just as good, meanwhile they'd still have other stuff they did because of their four other Utilities that would keep them different from the flying focused guys. And if they wanted to grab stuff from all sorts of different races, the slower and lower total amount would prevent the chance of ridiculous broken combos.

Sure, in some setup where I didn't have to think about "hey, won't that just make Changelings better than everyone else?" I would just say "just pick whatever the heck utilities you want all the time". But, yeah, that'd be unfair to races who one of their racial features is getting access to race specific utilities. The delayed nature is the cost they'd pay for access to everyone's racial utilities and this doesn't involve a cost that harms builds that could care less about other races utilities. Yes, this means you don't have starting Changelings who are as good at flying as Pegasi but, Pegasi can't shapeshift so, that's completely fine in my view. If you wanted a character whose starting focus was flying really well you probably wouldn't have picked Changeling anyway would you? But, you might want a Changeling with their other stuff whose secondary focus was flying. Or who just really wanted Awesomeness and Apple-Jack of All Trades or such (or Sonic Rainboom, Crazy Contraption, and Witchcraft for the total oddball character. I don't want to think too hard about what they'd want to do with that particular combination.)

So, yeah, it's a little restrictive but, it's not punishing and it promotes versatility which in my mind is one of the main keywords that should be kept in mind for Changelings (just like how whackyness is for Zebras).

Thanks for writing out your thought process. It's very helpful for me to understand what you're after.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the damage of losing a utility though in exchange for versatility. All Magic talents, for example, cost you a utility for added versatility about how you spend your Magic Point. Multiclass-feats are a standard system in RPGs that I'm fond of. It also makes a lot of sense, learning things you're normally not supposed to know takes extra time than learning more normal things. It's just as 'punishing' to postpone the cool versatility of changelings until weeks of gameplay have passed by. Heck, I'd say that's more 'punishing'.

It sounds more like you're trying to salve an emotional problem with the trait. Like you said earlier, "Better to not have the option to take other races talents at all than to have the option to do it at the cost of losing utility talents". That's not a logical argument in terms of gameplay, it's an emotional response - which is great; that's the core of game design. Spending a utility talent certainly wouldn't bother me (I love my Pony Stark build, which sinks 4 utility talents into just flying better) and I'm sure it wouldn't bother a lot of other people - but if it bothers you then it's worth trying to solve.

Lol, could also go something totally different.

Multitalented - Magic
For the next one minutes, you may trade out up to three of your utility talents for any other three utility talents; even if the talents can normally only be used by a non-changeling race.

With better phrasing of course. Wink
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:45 am

Huh? I don't remembering Witchcraft or the TK Utilities costing magic points to use. Most of the others do though yeah. Still that's hardly "all" of them.

Ah, see. I hate multiclass feats the way they normally work in pretty much every version of D&D. I don't see the point in making you basically waste a Feat which is always supposed to (in theory) give you something of equal value as any other feat (totally not true in practice of course...but I find it less a problem for some feats to be better than average than some to be worse than average) just to get a crappier version of another class' stuff. This just leaves you with a character who is overall weaker just because they wanted to do a bit less of what their class did and a bit more of what another one did. I've always though that it really shouldn't matter that you want to break class lines and should just get an actually fair exchange of this thing I get at this point for their thing they have at that point. So yeah, to me losing a utility talent (especially with so few of them total) for any reason is really really bad. (Disclaimer: About half the initial Multiclass feats, the ones where you gain a skill and weakened ability of that class I like. The rest I feel are insulting bad deals. Especially the ones to swap your power for the other classes. How is that fair at all? You already have to give up the power you'd get which is already supposedly balanced to be equally good as the one you want to trade it for. How does it make any sense at all to have you pay for that twice?)

The reason I said it'd be better not to have it at all is because in my view it was just a trap for people who didn't understand the value of the sacrifice that was proposed. For everyone else it was as good as not existing at all.

Hmmm, Multitalented is both really strong and really limited. It's not very good if you want to suddenly fly well for a decent amount of time. It's amazingly good if you just want to TK some stuff. It's worthless if you want to use anything that costs a magic point unless you have Derp. And it's broken because you can use it to gain Derp! "I only gain this Magic Point for 1 minute? Boo hoo? I only need it long enough to spend it which is right now anyway."
Edit: That would actually be, weirdly, a reason to NOT take Derp as one of your normal Utilities. Which is never something we want.

Edit 2: Ugh...again with the insinuations as to my reasons. As always my reasons are purely the way I perceive balance. Yes, it may mean different things to each of us and we may have different priorities as to what factor balances equally to what. This doesn't mean that because my view doesn't match yours I'm being emotional or biased or whatever. Please cut that out.


Last edited by Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:49 am

Ramsus wrote:Huh? I don't remembering Witchcraft or the TK Utilities costing magic points to use. Most of the others do though yeah. Still that's hardly "all" of them.

I'm talking about Magic talents... Meaning those that, by definition, cost a Magic Point to use. The ones with the "Magic" keyword next to their name where others have x/day and such. So yes, that is all of them.

Ramsus wrote:Ah, see. I hate multiclass feats the way they normally work in pretty much every version of D&D. I don't see the point in making you basically waste a Feat which is always supposed to (in theory) give you something of equal value as any other feat (totally not true in practice of course...but I find it less a problem for some feats to be better than average than some to be worse than average) just to get a crappier version of another class' stuff. This just leaves you with a character who is overall weaker just because they wanted to do a bit less of what their class did and a bit more of what another one did.

Totally called it. It's an emotional issue. Because multiclassing is an exceptionally strong option for many D&D systems, and 4e had to significantly tone down the benefits in order to keep things fair - and it's still a wicked strong option used in many of the most powerful builds ever made in the system.

So yeah, it has to be an emotional reaction to the talent because... Well, those systems *aren't* inferior the way you describe. And they're very popular.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:50 am

No. I hate them from a logical standpoint. The same way a doctor would hate people shooting their feet to try to solve foot odor.

Edit: Multiclassing in 4e is not strong at all though. Even without those penalties. Because for once they actually created a more or less balanced system where classes where at all levels equally good as each other. Multiclassing was only potentially broken in previous editions because combining certain abilities with others created broken combos that were a result of the core problem that classes were fundamentally in-equal to each other.

Edit 2: Popular =/= logically correct. I point out it was once popular belief the earth was flat. Also it's popular to be prejudiced against other people. Also war is pretty popular. There are tons and tons of examples of things that are popular that are horrible. Not really a strong way to make an argument.


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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:54 am

Ramsus wrote:No. I hate them from a logical standpoint. The same way a doctor would hate people shooting their feet to try to solve foot odor.

By that phrasing, 'everything' is from a logical standpoint. The phrase becomes meaningless. You won't like any version of the trait that costs a utility talent, no matter how powerful the added versatility. Even if it was clearly broken, you'd emotionally just *hate* taking it.

Just look at classic multiclassing. Very powerful, but you still emphasize that you hate it.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:57 am

Yes, I hate it because it's imbalanced. If you overbalance Changeling versatility I wouldn't like that either. Like if they could just use every race's utilities with no limitation at all I'd have problems with that too. It wouldn't be fair. What I want is a fair balance. I just happen to view anything reducing your total amount of utilities compared to other races very hard to balance. Especially when it involves paying that cost even if you weren't going to use what you get for that cost.


Last edited by Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:03 am

Ramsus wrote:No. I hate them from a logical standpoint. The same way a doctor would hate people shooting their feet to try to solve foot odor.

Edit: Multiclassing in 4e is not strong at all though.

Um... This is just wrong. First, I pointed out that 4e had to tone it down - so it should be weaker than previous versions. Second, despite this both the DPR kings and the Hall of Heroes (two spectrums encompassing the most powerful characters the system can possibly produce on the 4e character optimization forums) make significant use of multiclassing in many builds. Are you claiming that these builds, statistically some of the most powerful the system can produce, are not strong at all? Multiclassing is the key to quite a few of their tricks. Hybriding goes even deeper.

Ramsus wrote:Edit 2: Popular =/= logically correct. I point out it was once popular belief the earth was flat. Also it's popular to be prejudiced against other people. Also war is pretty popular. There are tons and tons of examples of things that are popular that are horrible. Not really a strong way to make an argument.

*laughs*

Yeah, because the last thing we'd want to do is design a race that's popular with players. Wink

We're trying to design something that people will enjoy Ramsus. That's why I'm staying up late trying to work this out with you, because I want the maximum amount of people to enjoy it. So yes, if something is popular with players that IS a good indicator - since that's the whole point of our design.


Edit - If it's an issue of balance the problem is already solved. Because the option to spend one less utility talent for gaining the equivalent of several racial traits (Sisters of the Sky for every single race) is definitely not underpowered. So is it overpowered? I don't think so, for reasons mentioned before.

Therefore, if it's only a balance issue - you're fine.

Also, it's very easy to balance losing a utility talent. Because every single utility talent we make is balanced against it costing a utility talent slot. Wink
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:10 am

It occurs to me that there's not actually a need to have my template be a template. You could just attach it to the default changeling and leave Dilettante and Form Focus (forgot the exact name). They'd just over-wright it and every type of changeling who cares at all about outside racial stuff would be appeased. Someone who wants to just fill up on all their utilities from other races could take Dilettante, someone who wanted just Pegasi or Unicorn or whatever can take Form Focus (and it doesn't even cost anything to take), and those who just want to dabble could just stick with my addition. Might have to add a line specifying Dilettante overrides the limit of Copycat but, that's not hard at all. And at that point the loss of a utility talent is fine to me because the cost isn't one anyone would get confused and feel they had to pay.
Edit: Would have to make it clear with Form Focus that you're giving up Copycat, but that's fine as it's basically a replacement since it doesn't cost a Utility. In fact you could just make that a This or This choice at character creation (as opposed to introduce weird no cost Utilties).
Edit 2: In fact just making all three a choice of one of these racial features would be I think least messy.
Edit 3: I think I just had a logical argument with myself that was "let's not make this a template, let's make it a template". *sigh* Anyway, I think it would be easier to deal with if all three options were just right there in the racial book and then every type of Changeling build is viable and nobody doesn't get their cookies because someone else wanted pie.

Edit 4: I suppose this might cause an annoyance for people who at level 5 or something decided they wanted to completely change all of their Pegasi Utilities out for one of each racial utility or something. But...it'd probably still be less messy to just throw down a line that it'd be encouraged for GMs to allow Changelings to re-choose which option they picked at level up. (Also I'm not particularly concerned with the possibility that someone wants to totally 180 their character.)

I wouldn't know about the technicalities of muchkining. I'm not a munchkin. From a non-munchkin viewpoint those costs are horrible. Just because it's possible to make good use of them by being a munchkin doesn't mean it's fair or balanced to the average player.
Edit 5: Hell with freeze over, boil, and buy me a birthday cake twice in the same year before any version of D&D is balanced equally for munchkins and non-munchkins.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:24 am

Ramsus wrote:It occurs to me that there's not actually a need to have my template be a template. You could just attach it to the default changeling and leave Dilettante and Form Focus (forgot the exact name). They'd just over-wright it and every type of changeling who cares at all about outside racial stuff would be appeased. Someone who wants to just fill up on all their utilities from other races could take Dilettante, someone who wanted just Pegasi or Unicorn or whatever can take Form Focus (and it doesn't even cost anything to take), and those who just want to dabble could just stick with my addition. Might have to add a line specifying Dilettante overrides the limit of Copycat but, that's not hard at all. And at that point the loss of a utility talent is fine to me because the cost isn't one anyone would get confused and feel they had to pay.
Edit: Would have to make it clear with Form Focus that you're giving up Copycat, but that's fine as it's basically a replacement since it doesn't cost a Utility. In fact you could just make that a This or This choice at character creation (as opposed to introduce weird no cost Utilties).
Edit 2: In fact just making all three a choice of one of these racial features would be I think least messy.
Edit 3: I think I just had a logical argument with myself that was "let's not make this a template, let's make it a template". *sigh* Anyway, I think it would be easier to deal with if all three options were just right there in the racial book and then every type of Changeling build is viable and nobody doesn't get their cookies because someone else wanted pie.

...

...

... *laughs*

Ramsus, that's what I've been talking about... The whole... Dang... Time.

What on earth did you think the conversation was about? pirat

Ramsus wrote:I wouldn't know about the technicalities of muchkining. I'm not a munchkin. From a non-munchkin viewpoint those costs are horrible. Just because it's possible to make good use of them by being a munchkin doesn't mean it's fair or balanced to the average player.

In that case, you might not want to complain about things being underpowered in that case - because it's the wrong argument to make. First, in my dnd game tonight a player made fine use of a simple ranger multiclass to get an extra burst of striker-damage with a once-per-encounter hunter's quarry feature as well as qualifying for a neat ranger paragon path. That's a fine, completely normal use of it and it's a great use of a feat or two. Gave his rogue extra spike damage and more options.

I think we can make sure the changelings have an option you're happy with. But definitely not going to get rid of the current Dilettante option.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:41 am

*shrug* It seemed like you were objecting to including my idea in any official capacity entirely. That's the argument I thought we were having.

Er, I think you misunderstood me. THOSE feats I think are fine. (In fact they are hands down better than at least the "gain one trained skill" feat since they do that and more.) It's the encounter/daily/utility power replacement feats I think are bad.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Dr Blight on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:27 am

So is "Favorite Form" an official changeling utility now?
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:36 pm

Ramsus wrote:*shrug* It seemed like you were objecting to including my idea in any official capacity entirely. That's the argument I thought we were having.

We are talking about that to a lesser extent. But the solution that suddenly occurred to you is the one I thought we were discussing implementing in the first place.

Er, I think you misunderstood me. THOSE feats I think are fine. (In fact they are hands down better than at least the "gain one trained skill" feat since they do that and more.) It's the encounter/daily/utility power replacement feats I think are bad.[/quote]

Four things

1) When I mention the multiclass system, I'm talking about the multiclass system. Not some segment of it.

2) Even those power-swap elements have been used in powerful builds.

3) Don't forget, systems are designed for people besides you. Other people don't mind spending a feat in order to fulfill a character concept. This both serves the game balance and allows these people a way to build the characters they want. One player in my 4e game has taken a huge number of replacement powers and he loves his build. It's also dang good and munchkin-free. You might want to explain to him sometime why you think it's better to not have that option at all than to have it.

4) *laughs* I wonder if we could solve your issue with the 'loss' of utility talent with something like this.

Dilettante
Increase the DC of seeing through your changeling's trickery by 2. In addition, you may also take utility talents from any race.



Dr Blight wrote:So is "Favorite Form" an official changeling utility now?

Functionally, yes. It'll either be a utility or a racial trait option. Either way, you'll be able to use it.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  XandZero2 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:57 pm

Ramsus wrote:
Xand, I dunno about permanent scarring. It's never fun to have a random die roll force a permanent change on your character. Also...damage out of combat....kinda meaningless isn't it? Btw, for Heart's Desire do you mean any effect on the table or can I use it to summon Great Cthulhu? =P ("Stop your plans sinister foe or I will....nuke the world!" "Hey, I'm supposed to be the villain here!")
Edit: Since all the other effects are non-combat related the bad effects should be too. Like -10 to your next skill check or less abusable, one of the GM's choosing. Also, a good detrimental effect would be hallucinations. Or mistakenly causing you to believe the potion it does something it doesn't. (Possibly still actually does one of the effects on the table but, not the one your character thinks it does. Or you just don't know at all.)

With the permanent scarring, I was thinking more along the lines of something minor (like a scratch or eyepatch), but I see your point.

I don't know if I agree with you as far as damage out of combat being meaningless. It could be meaningful if you didn't get an hour's rest and had to fight somepony - but point also taken. Most of the time you will get to rest the damage off.

Also, yeah, it would be an effect on the tale Wink

-No Cthulhu here, sorry.

I like the idea of giving out-of-combat penalties. How about we do something like...


1. Potion of Epic Fail! - You not only fail, but you do so epiclly! Treat any failure on skill checks as a critical failure (the GM is encouraged to imagine truly epic failures), but on the bright side, this'll likely give you some great stories to tell your grandchildren.
2-5. Potion of Not Quite so Epic Fail - You still fail, but not quite as epiclly. Congrats. Take a -10 penalty to the next 3 checks the GM calls on you to make.
6-7. Discombobulation Draught - Minor explosion. Nothing out of the ordinary happens at first, but something feels a bit off. You temporarily lose training in one skill (GM's choice).
8. It's a Dud! - nothing happens, or the potion explodes harmlessly in your face (take your pick).
9. Impath Potion - You or an ally gains Telepathy
10. 3D Draught - You or an ally gains Mirage
11. Sound FX Potion - You or an ally gains Echo
12. Delivery Draught - You or an ally gains Spike, Take a Letter
13. Hocus Pocus Potion (HPP) - You or an ally gains It's Witchcraft
14. Weight of Elephant - You or an ally gains Immovable
15. Psychic Sense - You or an ally gains Detect Minds
16. Strength of Stone - You or an ally gains Strengthen Substance
17. Squishiness of Squash - You or an ally gains Weaken Substance
18. Flame On - You or an ally gains Pyrotechnics
19. Night Crawler - You or an ally gains Phase Step
20. Heart's Desire - Choose any one potion effect from the table.

BTW - Tell me if I'm going off the deep end here, Stairc, so I know where to focus my energy.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:06 pm

Lots of cool ideas, but try channeling them into Everypony talents. We need more of those. And the Zebra will get some buff or other, but stay pretty much where it is. The double-roll is a huge boost, they have a cutie mark... I'll add something small to them to round them out.

Take these cool ideas and put them to use in the Everypony category, so all races can enjoy them.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:53 pm

Ugh. Argh no. That doesn't "fix" Dilettante to be useful for every build. That's just a consolation prize. I think having the three options just be a choice of one of them at character creation would still just be the best and fairest solution. If you make Dilettantes get a bonus to their disguise DC you just gave them a bonus to the thing they specifically chose not to focus on. It's just weird and consolation prizes never fix anything. They do break things on occasion though.

I never said I hated all of multiclassing though. Just that parts of it were often unfair and unbalanced. Just because someone wants to do something so much that they are willing to accept an unfair sacrifice they're being asked to make doesn't make it fair. It just means that person doesn't care. That's not balance, it's apathy. I don't think you can really make an argument for it being unfair if someone got to keep their feat and still swap one encounter power from their class for some other class'. Those powers are already supposedly balanced to each other already. Just because people would still buy cakes even if they came with random chicken bones mixed in doesn't mean we shouldn't argue against not putting chicken bones in people's cakes for no good reason.

Edit: Oh yeah. The potion thing. I personally really think that should be kept as a Zebra only thing the same way Telekinesis is a Unicorn thing. It's a major part of that race's them (as far as we know until the show starts trotting out more Zebras anyhow).

Xand, I would still like to see an unknown type potion. I think for the trained skill loss one you might want to give that a duration of some kind so that it doesn't end up with some GMs saying it last all day and others saying it lasts ten minutes.
Edit 2: Though, really good job on the wording of the skill penalty result. That ensures the player can't make pointless skill checks just to get rid of the effect and it also avoids sadist GMs from saving them for when the penalty would be the difference between you succeeding and failing.

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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:40 pm

Ramsus wrote:Ugh. Argh no. That doesn't "fix" Dilettante to be useful for every build.

Why on earth should Dilettante be useful for every build?

Ramsus wrote:That's just a consolation prize. I think having the three options just be a choice of one of them at character creation would still just be the best and fairest solution. If you make Dilettantes get a bonus to their disguise DC you just gave them a bonus to the thing they specifically chose not to focus on. It's just weird and consolation prizes never fix anything. They do break things on occasion though.

And yet, you just endorsed the skill training 'consolation prize' for multiclassing in feats. When it comes to D&D. Gaining training in one skill is definitely not worth a feat in D&D, it's laughably inferior, which is why they throw it on as a consolation prize to multiclassing. If it was as good as other options, the additional options of multiclassing on top of it would mean that multiclassing was a must-take feat. And it's not.


Ramsus wrote:I never said I hated all of multiclassing though. Just that parts of it were often unfair and unbalanced. Just because someone wants to do something so much that they are willing to accept an unfair sacrifice they're being asked to make doesn't make it fair. It just means that person doesn't care. That's not balance, it's apathy. I don't think you can really make an argument for it being unfair if someone got to keep their feat and still swap one encounter power from their class for some other class'. Those powers are already supposedly balanced to each other already. Just because people would still buy cakes even if they came with random chicken bones mixed in doesn't mean we shouldn't argue against not putting chicken bones in people's cakes for no good reason.

1) Just because you think something is an unfair sacrifice doesn't mean it is. You've mentioned a huge amount of things as, "weak" or, "unfair" - while claiming you're not wanting to munchkin - that have been used in some of the best builds out there.

2) You must be kidding me about that encounter power suggestion. Some of the best builds take those powers even with all the extra costs already, and they're wicked strong. Giving them free feats on top of it would, yes, break the system. Or it would take over 100 times the amount of playtesting before launch, because you'd need to playtest not only all the combinations of powers within a class - but all the combinations across classes too. Some classes have exceptionally strong powers at different levels right now in 4e, to add to the feeling of diversity, and that would let you just take the best from two different levels.

Conclusion: The conversation's starting to go in circles now. You've definitely shared your opinions and they've definitely led us to making the changeling better (the updated template is in the Races of Equestria expansion). However, at this point I think we've gone as far as we can on the subject.

Your proposed solution would be both unnecessarily complicated (three different changeling templates) and create a top-heavy power versatility in comparison to the bottom. Players that took it would get to feel more like ever-shifting changelings at the higher levels than the lower ones; and the higher levels will be played much less than the lower ones. Three changeling versions are just too much.

I've established it as a much simpler execution. Changelings start specialized in another race, and gain another specialization at level 5. This provides both the option to mix and match other races for free with a simple time-delay for the next option. Those that want truly unlimited freedom have to pay for it in terms of a utility talent with the Dilletante ability (which also gets a boost at level 5). Just as changelings in your build would have to wait for added versatility in utility talent selection, changelings that take the Diletante talent have to wait for added versatility in utility talent number.

This both establishes the infinite-option changeling build fairly and lets people that would rather focus on one or two races do it for free.

No design will solve everyone's problems, but I feel this is a stronger approach than the previous one and should sate you fury. If not, well, you can always homebrew something and run it by your DM. That's fine too. I love you
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:06 pm

1) That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying the bonus to it you were giving it was unnecessary since it only applied to builds that you wouldn't want for Dilettante anyway.

2) Ok, now I know you're ignoring things I'm saying. I never said those initial multiclass feats were all bad.

3) I was unaware that powers at the same level for different classes weren't intended to be balanced to each other. I think that circumvents our entire discussion to the point where we might as well just not even be worried about balance in D&D at all because it isn't going to exist no matter which way you go with things.

4) I don't see how having a third option is more difficult than having two. It seems like you're just rejecting it just because. Especially since you yourself have repeatedly made the argument that if people are ok with a particular sacrifice then they should be allowed to take it. Slow growth in versatility is just as fair a sacrifice as one less utility talent total to start with full versatility as far as I see. So you're basically just denying people the choice because you happen to not like that choice? I don't really get it. That's exactly what you earlier mocked me for doing, except in my case I could at least say without any doubt it was just an unfair sacrifice to ask people to make (talking about old Copycat there).
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