Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Fury of the Tempest Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:15 pm

Mind Gamer wrote:That's... Close to what I meant. Not quite.

"So what if you have me pinned. I'll fight with the rest of my body."

That statement in of itself makes the argument that even if you pinned a creature to the ground, through flavor, they could justify attacking even if it's with a headbutt, magic, or biting your legs off. Escaping the pin isn't needed. Combat starts, and the pin is pointless.

Good thing that's not the only possible usage of the talent.

ZamuelNow wrote:@Fury: I'm curious, have you seen Philadelphus' gravity utility suggestion? I know there was some back and forth discussion that may be of use to your destiny proposal or perhaps you may find you want to suggest adjustments to the utility concept.

You mean tilt? Yeah, its what inspired the destiny.

ZamuelNow Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:29 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:You mean tilt?

Actually, Artificial Gravity.
Original suggestion: https://ponytales.forumotion.com/t301-season-3-utility-talents#16576
Revamp suggestion + a lot of back and forth discussion: https://ponytales.forumotion.com/t617-what-s-missing-utility-talents-version#51851

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:37 pm

1) Utility talents can't give combat benefits or affect combat as a rule of thumb - as has been stated before for familiar reasons.

2) Without something highly specific, this type of effect is clearly going to cause arguments about what it can do in combat. It's already causing them.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:58 pm

Fine. I'll specify that the talent cannont be used in comvat at alll!

There, everyone happy at sucking out all the fun?!

**Kindulas** Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:00 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Fine. I'll specify that the talent cannont be used in comvat at alll!

There, everyone happy at sucking out all the fun?!

This has always been a thing, why are you so up in arms about it?

Fury of the Tempest Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:53 pm

Because people should be able to use talents the way they want to! At least to the GM's discretion. If they want to pin the enemy, fine. Its up to the GM to decide how it effects combat! Hell, fighting ib a self-made zero G enciriment woukd be awesone! But if course, we can't have awesome things like that, can we? Peopke aren't allowed to think outside the box when it comes to combat.

Ramsus Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:58 pm

I think you misunderstand Fury. It's simply that the players aren't allowed to/shouldn't be encouraged to tell the GM how things they are doing affect combat and should not expect combat effects from out of combat abilities. The GM as always can do whatever they damn well like.

**Kindulas** Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:07 pm

This game was made with the concept that people should be able to pick out of combat abilities without having to give thought to combat uses, so that there's no give and take to you character's in and out of combat usefulness. Occasionally in special circumstances DMs can allow utilities to help out in a fight, but players cannot count on this, so it isn't an issue when creating a character. That means that talents shouldn't have clear combat applications, in order to maintain that divide. Something that says you can pin someone to the floor is begging to be taken in hopes that someone can impair a combatant. Sure, the DM decides *how* it does, but all too often someone will take it thinking he can throw someone out of the fight.
Player - "There, I pin him to the ground, now he can't help out in this fight."
DM - "I'm... going to rule that's a combat application, he shakes it off with... like... combat-adrenaline."
Player - "That's a lame ruling DM."
DM - "You're not supposed to use these things in combat, what do you except?"
Player - "It's not 'for combat,' I removed him from the fight just before combat!"
DM - "So you basically killed one of my monsters before initiative with a utility talent."
Player - "No, it's like combat circumvention, it's not so different from talking our way out of the or escaping with a utility!"
DM - "Yes, it really is. I mean, you can still kill or tie him up after the fight, you incapacitated him, that's different."
Player - "Not that different."
DM - "I'm the DM, what I say goes okay?"
Player - "Okay well can he at least start prone?"
DM - "You're... still blatantly using it to get an edge in combat."

These arguments will happen. Maybe this is over-dramatized, but the talent will cause stuff like this.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:20 pm

Then it'll be specifuced that ANY combat applications occour PURELY by GM's consent and the player has no descision in HOW theur powers affect combat.

Hayatecooper Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:25 pm

Can't you do the same thing with fabricate?
Like, make a cage,stone socks out of the floor?
(I do agree with you though Kindulas)

**Kindulas** Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:28 pm

Hayatecooper wrote:Can't you do the same thing with fabricate?
Like, make a cage,stone socks out of the floor?
(I do agree with you though Kindulas)

There are many cases where you can think of a way utilities could be used for combat, but that's why there's a blanket rule of "no you can't unless the DM lets you for a particular situation, or if you're using them "in combat" for something other than helping with the combat iteself (I would easily let a player fabricate a bridge if they need to flee from combat over a chasm)," but the way this grav thing specifies you can pin people?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:32 pm

Why not do the way Hellfire Chains works? Just let it only work on willing or helpless creatures.

Hayatecooper Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:34 pm

Fair enough, reading over the talent couldn't you just state instead of Object, "Object not attached or held to a living creature"

Thus solving the issue?

**Paper Shadow** Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:34 pm

"Doomsday" Device (Utility Talent):

All Aboard! (Level 3 Boon):

Hayatecooper Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:48 am

(Newest Update? Heck. Yeah. I'm ok with Magic Drain if they are all are as good as Steady Hoof)

Fury of the Tempest Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:55 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Why not do the way Hellfire Chains works? Just let it only work on willing or helpless creatures.

If I HAVE TO. But honestly, I don't see why I have to change it all. Isn't their any trusts for players and/or GM's here?

Hayatecooper wrote:Fair enough, reading over the talent couldn't you just state instead of Object, "Object not attached or held to a living creature"

Thus solving the issue?

That is a serious nerf that I'm not having.

ZamuelNow Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:50 am

I'm curious to what modifications would be needed to get a digging utility into the system? I'll admit to being semi-overt about trying to get diamond dogs into the system but I wondering if digging utilities have been losing out to not being cool enough compared to other entries for the week or if there's something mechanically wrong with them.

kajisora Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:38 pm

Yayy for utilities! I like utilities, so here's two more from me:
EDIT: Focused Evolution... I am going to have to come up with some sort of absurdly non-magical race now. I was going to make an Epic Donkey anyway...

First the time based racial I mentioned last week:

Racial:

I also promised to come up with a utility that uses history. Seeing as history is more or less treated as book smarts in most places where I've seen it used:

Utility:

ZamuelNow Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:05 pm

While I try to get some other stuff planned out, gonna go ahead and submit one of my two for the week. While generally not big on making necromantic talents, this could prove to make some interesting characters and be spun in any number of flavors like a postcognitive psychic or a Sherlock Holmes expy who is just that good at figuring things out from small details. As usual, exact numbers can be adjusted.

Memories of the Departed:

kajisora Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:08 pm

Memories seems interesting, but isn't it a bit TOO situational?
Removing the requirement that the owner of the object is deceased would make it a lot more useful.

Zarhon Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:19 pm

Made a pair of utilities, focused around those who require a lot of x/day abilities, or magic point abilities. Tried to make things balanced with spellchild and any potential abuse-uses.

Overdrive - Utility:

Magic Surge - Utility:

ZamuelNow Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:23 pm

While Overdrive may be useful, the Living Legends side of things does have the Virtue (their name for Element) of Tenacity.

Tenacity - Magic
Fully recharge all uses of up to two of your X/Day utility talents.

Zarhon Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:21 pm

Well pony tales doesn't have it in that case, because of its own Elements of Harmony being limited to the six, and this is an alternative to using MPs for that purpose (cause you might not even have any or unwilling to spend MPs). Depending on luck or build, you can even somewhat shrug off the penalty. Its a question of whether the "tenacity" would ever achieve its full value anyway (cause using it to restock a single 1/day ability means you're not getting the full "cost return" from your MP investment).

Hmm, that brings a good question: Is there a point to the Elements of Harmony being a unique thing, nowadays, as far as how the rulebook treats them? They're supposed to be special, and you get one "for free", but their choice/range/variety is severely limited (Pony Tales is stuck with six for what is essentially lore/friendship reasons and every character embodying one each or more, even when they aren't) and situational.

You even lose out it when you take the "focused evolution" racial. Not much of a special mechanic if its lost on a (1) racial.

kajisora Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:50 pm

Zarhon wrote:Is there a point to the Elements of Harmony being a unique thing, nowadays, as far as how the rulebook treats them? They're supposed to be special, and you get one "for free", but their choice/range/variety is severely limited (Pony Tales is stuck with six for what is essentially lore/friendship reasons and every character embodying one each or more, even when they aren't) and situational.

You even lose out it when you take the "focused evolution" racial. Not much of a special mechanic if its lost on a (1) racial.

focused evolution doesn't mean you don't get an element. You just don't have the magic points to use it.For example, I could make a FE character, take the madness destiny and only use the free laughter rolls it gives.

I think the elements are supposed to be more powerful than standard Magic utilities. Thing is though, most of them are so situational that they're rarely used.

Zarhon Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:22 pm

kajisora wrote:focused evolution doesn't mean you don't get an element. You just don't have the magic points to use it.For example, I could make a FE character, take the madness destiny and only use the free laughter rolls it gives.

I think the elements are supposed to be more powerful than standard Magic utilities. Thing is though, most of them are so situational that they're rarely used.

Well then unless you heavily specialize and plan around it, or barring special situations, you still can't actually *use* your element, meaning it's taking up space doing nothing.

As far as "power" goes, it's not much - "Kindness" and "Generosity" are probably the only "truly" powerful abilities - "Generosity" through its power and flexibility (though it can get trumped by "The Stare" or "Yee-Haw" in power), and "Kindness" through "stopping combat" (but its useless if there's more than one creature, so hardly a campaign breaker). "Laughter" is taken mostly for fun and to introduce hilarity and is completely up to DM discretion, but due to its random nature may cause disapproval by the DM or an outright ban. "Magic" is just a wildcard, that is itself limited to just regular utilities if you don't have at least 2 MPs to spend. Loyalty is extremely situational and specific, and slightly vague as to what it helps against. Honesty is also extremely situational and requires the not-very-friendship-like act of having a hostage/prisoner, so its knowledge-getting power is given to you by the DM letting you capture somepony in the first place.

By comparison to other MP abilities, there's really not much "power" behind them, and even less flexibility. Gimme Spectral Tidal Wave, Crazy Contraption, The Stare, Yee-Haw or other such stuff any day.

Anyway, so as not to bog down this thread, I've posted about the Elements (and a proposal) in the Errata Suggestions/Discussion thread.

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