The New System is Here!

The thing is fury, the lack of content is something that is pretty easily fixed (relatively speaking) and most likely will be fixed. I'm sure that Pony Tales didn't start off with all the options it has now. It took time to build it up. And since this is what they are working on right now, I'm sure that there will be more options. I figure that since the system is basically ready to play (in the sense that you can build a character) they decided to show it to us now to get feedback, and see what we want the most. So if you really want something to be added or transferred over, telling the developers is a good place to start.

I wasn't here for the racial divide removal, but I was here for the ability revamp, and I am seeing a lot of the same reactions, particularly in regards to things being left out. But after discussion, most of the things that people wanted were added back, or determined too problematic to keep in ( jinx anyone?) So I can understand that this will likely be a similar experience. At the same time, I think it is important to acknowledge how people feel now, instead of just dismissing their feelings as being negative reactions to change. We are communicating over the internet, and we cannot truly tell what others are feeling. And the truth is that people are angry, and want their complaints acknowledged, not brushed aside.I understand that not every conflict can be dealt with like this, (like the defender issue) and that you are very busy, and don't have time to listen to every complaint, but still.

I think a good thing for that, is to say what you think should be re-added, and explain just why you feel that it should, at a certain level. Whether from a roleplay or gameplay perspective. Like, for example, I enjoy playing characters who have unusual hobbies such as a child who is a master marksman, or a paladin with a soft spot for clock-making, or the like, and I'd probably want some sort of skill that'd help me actually utilize those hobbies in an active way, such as my paladin being able to find parts for a clock- or craft them out of wood- if need be, or my child to be able to utilize his weapons outside of combat- like using a slingshot with a metal ball to give a fleeing enemy a charlie horse and hindering them.

EDIT - While I was writing this, Logan ninjaed me with an awesome post explaining the GM side. Couldn't have said it any better myself. There are two sides of the table after all, and Wanderlust wants both to have a good time (especially when one side of the table is responsible for the other side's experience). Now, back to our regularly scheduled post...



Glad to here so much of the new system's core mechanics are enjoyed. I'd be happy to steadily add new content to Wanderlust as well, once the GM support is done (not making the same mistake as PT of adding more and more content and never getting GM stuff done, and the more content added the harder it was to make the GM stuff in the first place).

However, Wanderlust has a level of quality control that PT didn't have when it comes to player content - as well as some additional criteria. This is going to limit what we can include.

1) Wanderlust is going to be balanced. This alone prevents many, many things from PT being added in.
2) Wanderlust is going to avoid causing GM headaches. This prevents many things from PT being added in (such as Spectral Tsunami and Magecraft).
3) Wanderlust is going to avoid redundancy. This prevents things from PT, such as the multiple redundant ways to disguise yourself, being added.

Wanderlust also wants to have a set of options that isn't entirely overwhelming, especially at level 1. For example, the creation of the Features, rather than opening up the whole can of worms that was the entire Trait system in PT at level 1 (via the training certificate item), is designed to provide a small number of options that new players can easily process. Considering how many other things they need to worry about learning at level 1, this is a huge advantage.

It's a LOT easier to houserule in complexity and options for experienced players than it is to house-cut options from less experienced players. I plan to have the GM's guide provide several suggestions on how to do this, if experienced players feel strangled by level 1 options. Here are a few of those suggestions.

1) Don't start at level 1. Level 1 is almost the tutorial stage. Most of the more difficult abilities to manage as a GM are pushed up to exalted or legendary tier (another advantage of the tier system). Starting at level 2 opens an extraordinary amount of additional options right out of the gate. Even in PT, I often started my home games at level 2 or higher.

2) Let players trade 2 Novice ability points for 1 heroic ability point, and let them trade 3 novice ability points for 1 legendary ability point. This opens even more options, especially when combined with starting at higher levels.

3) Hand players extra points. This can wreck the leveling curve and create problems at level 10 (which is a constant problem, many systems break under their own weight because they give players too many goodies too early). However, if you aren't planning to play that high or don't mind tracking lots of complexity, go for it.


Now, one aspect of Wanderlust's reduced content over PT can be dealt with officially. The stuff that gives GMs headaches. We've already protected inexperienced GMs partially by creating the tiered system. By the time a new GM encounters legendary abilities, they should have a lot more GM experience. However, many things were too difficult to deal with for even Legendary and cause GMs massive headaches if they don't know exactly how to deal with them. That said, they're also wicked fun for players.

My classic example is Magecraft. Despite it being one of the most-complained about things ever (and rightfully so, as it was extraordinarily vague). It was always fair in my home games, because I can balance such effects on the fly. I also don't need a monster manual or anything, because I can design monsters, encounters and balance them to my group faster than the players take their turns - so no prep is needed. Laughter tables also jump out here, and to a lesser extent things like Twitchy Tail and Fracture the Fourth Wall.

In short, some experienced GMs, or GMs that are just good at improvising, don't have to worry about some of the headaches we kept out of Wanderlust. These GMs might very well want to open those options to their players. How do we deal with that?

My plan is to create, once the core support content is done, "Wanderlust Unleashed - The GM's Headache Expansion". This would be a 100% optional book that GMs are not required to use - and are actively advised not to, as it will cause them headaches. However, for those that desire to include it in their games, it'll be added player content that they can open for their players. Things like Create Crazy Contraption, the Defender power, LOTS more status effects on enemies, Sunderblade, Spectral Tsunami and lots more things that can either derail GM plans if not prepared for OR completely throw off the normal balance of encounters (many save-ends effects were cut from Wanderlust because they have variable value based on the enemies they're used on and thus can't be balanced).



Also, while this won't be an official part of the Wanderlust docs, it's easy to import any non-combat PT content you like into Wanderlust. I've previously provided some guidelines on how to do this but here's a quick reminder.

1) Ability points trade 1 for 1. 1 Novice point buys 1 ability point worth of PT content.
2) All the PT destinies can be used for the non-combat side of Wanderlust destinies.

As for combat content, the balance of the costs to the effects is different so that's harder to add in. However, I've already released the math on how Wanderlust powers are roughly-balanced and I can release much more precise math too. This should allow you to homebrew anything you like based on PT content. 1000 gold = 1 exalted trait point.

mjh6 wrote:'m sure that Pony Tales didn't start off with all the options it has now. It took time to build it up.

When Pony Tales started, there wasn't even any material past level 1, no items or traits or destinies of any kind - support for only the 3 core pony races and about 70 combat talents. =)

mjh6 wrote:I figure that since the system is basically ready to play (in the sense that you can build a character) they decided to show it to us now to get feedback, and see what we want the most. So if you really want something to be added or transferred over, telling the developers is a good place to start.

Nailed it. We could keep guessing about what people think of the core mechanics and what might be missing for enabling story concepts, but we figure it's a lot easier to let the players themselves tell us - now that the stress test has demonstrated that the system is rock-solid in balance. We've already added in new monk and berserker options for precisely this reason. Of course, not everything can get added in - because of Wanderlust's added criteria - but as you say later with Jinx... Sometimes that's a good thing.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:

LoganAura wrote:A child who is a master marksman

Whilst talking about that particular character... have you officially quite Saint-Trotez?

Off topic, but not yet. I just didn't really realize there was something for me to do primarily because it's been super slow and when I thought "Oh I'll reply later" I got caught up in like 5 projects along with work.

But yeah, not yet? Primarily because I like Snipe as a character even if I had a huge spurt of "I dislike Pony Tales." after said -29 hp to full-healed thing happened.

I did a quick look at wanderlust: Even just going along with SKILLS I feel that's a huge area for enough variations and character uniqueness there, instead of how PT had 5-minimums. Having 50 points in 9 skills, and 15 points in 3 defenses, I can find a huge spread of possibilities just at a glance and the 10 points for novice abilities... I like as well. With each ability being 1-2-3 at a quick glance, you get a wide spread of possible combinations. And then there's combat, and the flavoring of each and every move being able to change, I see a lot of character variation and choice.

And got cut by dan.

Well-said again Logan. The added spread of points definitely creates more flavor opportunities for characters - including characters that can actually be below-average at a skill compared to the general populace.

mjh6 wrote:At the same time, I think it is important to acknowledge how people feel now, instead of just dismissing their feelings as being negative reactions to change. We are communicating over the internet, and we cannot truly tell what others are feeling. And the truth is that people are angry, and want their complaints acknowledged, not brushed aside.I understand that not every conflict can be dealt with like this, (like the defender issue) and that you are very busy, and don't have time to listen to every complaint, but still.

This deserves it's own reply, which it's getting here.

I absolutely get that some people are angry that the new system doesn't cater to them. It's pretty hard to miss that. I also get that some people wish we'd just added more to PT with this time, that's understandable. Also, though I am very busy, I have made time to read every response - complaint and otherwise - on these forums and off. I think it's also pretty clear that I've taken time to respond in detail, even when people haven't been exactly polite.

Fundamentally though, I think some people are just angry that Wanderlust isn't PT. The systems decided to do different things. PT's focus has almost always been on, "make massive-player-options and let the GM figure out how to deal with them", even if it means non-ideal gameplay or derailing plots. Wanderlust is trying to make sure that players can still create character sheets that make story-sense for their characters and that GMs can spend their time focusing on creating a great adventure and not sidestepping landmines in the system.

Since this is all focused to improving actual gameplay, which people don't experience when looking at handbooks, and improving the GM's experience - along with aiding new players and new GMs - a lot of entrenched fans are just going to see the lack of character options and not focus on all the positive aspects that came along with it.

However, even I'd rather GM Wanderlust than PT. Since I made the system; I'm probably the most qualified person of all to manage PT's chaos in a session, but it takes a lot of added mental effort that I'd rather spend making a great story, great characters and great worlds.

You can houserule all those things into your own games with Wanderlust. However, many of those things you brought up *are* current problems. While I plan to create a fix for Freaky Knowledge if possible that will allow it into Wanderlust - there's currently a huge clarity issue about what is acceptable as a freaky knowledge category right now. That initial ruling is difficult for GMs to make and can lead to balance issues later on in gameplay.

Being a weaker version of stun doesn't make daze balanced. I hope to add some of these conditions back in one the GM support is handled, because it's possible I'll find a way to create tools for GMs to deal with conditions of varying power. Right now, no condition that can be more powerful depending on the encounter in question is allowed. For example, Daze might be useless against many enemies - and then randomly annihilate an enemy built around multi-actions and/or reactions. Again, this rule might change once the GM tools are fully built. I hope it does. If we can provide easy ways for GMs to deal with conditions of varying power, we can open up a ton of design space.

Rapid Recovery creates repetitive gameplay, where players end up using the same [-X] powers over and over again. We're already providing, perhaps in-advisably, the Energized feature and other ways to recharge energy. However, with Rapid Recovery - players have to stay below the threshold in order to continue gaining value from it. A player with Energized can still use [+4] powers without worrying about turning off their powerful trait for a turn. We want to avoid repetition in gameplay, which is why neither system has a glut of [0] standard actions. Everything is designed to modify your energy total, to encourage using different powers. Rapid Recovery works against this. There are other ways of giving reaction-based builds tools to keep up energy without these negative side effects.

We considered Spelljacker originally for a destiny, but as you said - annoying to GMs. However, this was before we decided to separate most destinies into combat and nonbat halves. A lot more destiny concepts can be added now that we've done that. I expect that the destinies are one place we'll see significant content additions. I'd expect to at least double the current options.


EDIT - Also, it's worth noting that PT was built to be a 1-level system originally, for a one-shot. So it had a ton of content at level 1. When we added more levels to it, it ended up completely front-loading all the content if we didn't want to massively glut every character sheet as it leveled up. If it had been designed as a 10-level system originally, we'd have been a lot more reasonable with initial content.

I'm all for adding in new interesting options to Wanderlust, and there are definitely ways to add new things in that we haven't figured out or explored yet. It took us days to come up with the new Weakness condition for example, trying to figure out a way to give a damage-reducing debuff that would be balanced in any encounter. There was a solution, it just took us a while to find it - and if we hadn't refused to use the unbalanced solutions (which we might later get to add in anyway, if we can create GM tools that make it easy to balance the encounter in response to them), we'd have never come up with this neat new condition.

Good point on the Rapid Recovery style of effect. Gaining a bonus while you're below a certain amount of energy might be workable without creating repetition. If the bonus is getting more energy, that's a problem because you have to constantly spend that energy in repetitive ways. Gaining some other bonus could work though. Can't promise it, because it's still a narrow situation, but it's interesting to explore.

However, I do want to note that Wanderlust's design goal isn't focused on adding new options for the sake of new options. Less is more in design provided that the necessary functions are still covered.

Wanderlust's necessary functions for player content are...

1) Make sure every major concept for a fantasy character can be represented on a Wanderlust character sheet (as long as it's not fundamentally leading to bad gameplay, GM headaches or imbalance).

2) Make sure that the major gameplay styles in combat are supported (as long as... same as above).


We also want there to be at least some meaningful customization within both 1 and 2. Some players might like drawing enemy aggression to themselves. We want to provide them with several ways to do that; such as picking a guy to defend each round and body-blocking for him, grappling an enemy, or punishing enemies for attacking your friends. Some players will want to build a Monk concept, and we want to provide enough options within that character concept that they get to enjoy playing around and customizing.

However, once 1 and 2 are fulfilled - any additional content is just clutter. Since there aren't going to be absurd combos here for optimizers to discover, and the system is not designed to be a character-creation-optimization system, there isn't any reason to add more and more clutter. Wanderlust is supposed to be as clean and easy to use as possible. We don't need 10 powers that all do the same thing, since options can be reflavored at will.

A good example of content I like to add is the new Berserker "No Pain, No Gain". This one power added an extraordinary number of build options and teamwork options to berserker builds, turning every way the system has to give a player life into a potential power-source for adrenaline. It's a simple, clean and flavorful power - and it exponentially increases the concept's options... All with one simple addition.

I suggest Fury... Try to aim for what limits you see Wanderlust having... And go from there in trying to suggest stuff?

Regarding the amount of content in Wanderlust compared to Pony Tales, I would like to remind everyone that Pony Tales is around two years old at this point. I remember the very first release of Pony Tales, when it didn't have a quarter of the stuff it has now. The basic attribute and skill system, a small selection of utility talents (~50-60, and split between earth ponies, pegasi, and unicorns), and about 70 combat talents. Once you picked one of the three available races, your options on the utility side were severely reduced, down to maybe ~20 utility talents at the most for unicorns. There were NO items, NO traits, NO destinies, NO boons, and not even a level up table. Wanderlust already has easily five times more content at its release than Pony Tales did at its release.

(In fact, I just went and counted, and there are 59 Novice level abilities in Wanderlust at the moment, meaning that it already has about as much non-combat stuff available at level 1 as Pony Tales did when it came out, not to mention all the Exalted and Legendary abilities.)

In the two years since its release, a lot of stuff has been added to Pony Tales, so that at the moment it has more content than Wanderlust. However, "more" does not necessarily equal "better". With Wanderlust, and a chance to start afresh, we decided to focus on quality over quantity. Every ability in there is because we felt it was good enough to include.

Wanderlust, like PT/LL, will have stuff added to it over time (it already has, in fact), but the point is, we're not just adding things to Wanderlust merely to have more things; it'd be trivial to port the abilities from PT/LL over en masse, but there are a lot of them that we don't feel fit the design goals of Wanderlust. With Wanderlust we're adding things because they fill a hole or allow people to realize an important character concept that would be impossible otherwise. There may be slightly fewer options overall (though not by much, Wanderlust: 129, PT/LL: 150), but we think the ones that exist are all up to snuff.

(I can also say that we're currently working on some new abilities based on feedback, including trying to find a way to do something like Freaky Knowledge that fits the design goals.)

Philadelphus wrote:Regarding the amount of content in Wanderlust compared to Pony Tales, I would like to remind everyone that Pony Tales is around two years old at this point. I remember the very first release of Pony Tales, when it didn't have a quarter of the stuff it has now. The basic attribute and skill system, a small selection of utility talents (~50-60, and split between earth ponies, pegasi, and unicorns), and about 70 combat talents. Once you picked one of the three available races, your options on the utility side were severely reduced, down to maybe ~20 utility talents at the most for unicorns. There were NO items, NO traits, NO destinies, NO boons, and not even a level up table. Wanderlust already has easily five times more content at its release than Pony Tales did at its release.

(In fact, I just went and counted, and there are 59 Novice level abilities in Wanderlust at the moment, meaning that it already has about as much non-combat stuff available at level 1 as Pony Tales did when it came out, not to mention all the Exalted and Legendary abilities.)

In the two years since its release, a lot of stuff has been added to Pony Tales, so that at the moment it has more content than Wanderlust. However, "more" does not necessarily equal "better". With Wanderlust, and a chance to start afresh, we decided to focus on quality over quantity. Every ability in there is because we felt it was good enough to include.

Wanderlust, like PT/LL, will have stuff added to it over time (it already has, in fact), but the point is, we're not just adding things to Wanderlust merely to have more things; it'd be trivial to port the abilities from PT/LL over en masse, but there are a lot of them that we don't feel fit the design goals of Wanderlust. With Wanderlust we're adding things because they fill a hole or allow people to realize an important character concept that would be impossible otherwise. There may be slightly fewer options overall (though not by much, Wanderlust: 129, PT/LL: 150), but we think the ones that exist are all up to snuff.

(I can also say that we're currently working on some new abilities based on feedback, including trying to find a way to do something like Freaky Knowledge that fits the design goals.)

This sorta jumped to the forefront of my mind while trying to build a character recently.  While WL may have more options than some initially argued when first revealed, said options are more narrow than in LL/PT.  Most are some form of upgrade than genuinely unique options that just happen to be restricted to higher levels.  This sorta alters the stated 129 vs 150 abilities that was mentioned, though the LL side a number are roll manipulations, admittedly.  I think it's of interesting note that while all of my campaigns now use Fatal HP and a few use the new skills/defenses, none of my preexisting campaigns opted to switch over to WL abilities.

To the concept of things being missing, the thing that struck me is the loss of options for mechanics...with the intriguing counterpart of this almost evenly matching the new warrior/athletic options.  It feels odd to have two or three different options to lock a door but no extra abilities to pick a lock outside of just buying abilities to hulk out and kick it down.  Fabricate makes sense as a higher level ability and CCC was always kinda nuts but it stings a little to not even have a downgraded version of MacGyver was really disappointing.  I was about to say the Classical Fantasy Game nature of the revamp was holding it back but that shouldn't be true since DnD does have dwarven inventors.  Mechanic/Inventor is theoretically the most noticeable omission from the WL destinies outside of things that are overtly problematic (necromancers, psychics, dice manipulators, etc) or RP focused (royalty and celebrities).

I do know there's discussion going on about how to handle Freaky Knowledge for WL and likewise I know there was talk about making WL's weathercrafting more granular than the big strength jumps it currently has so I know some things are intended but not in just yet.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Well, because all the GM support isn't there yet. I'm delighted if people play the game anyway of course (and anyone with game design experience will be just fine), but it's not in a state yet where I'd be expecting people to play it without further support. Even PT had a little help with the PH's Guide.

As far as the PH Guide, outside of some of the specific numbers and mini-scenarios, the information in the base WL Adventurer's Guide feels like it does an equal or better job of explaining Game Master concepts.  It's actually one of the things that made it difficult for me to work on a GM guide.  With that, I'll publicly note that I was one of the people who volunteered to help with a GM Guide but never finished due to various circumstances. My desire to be concise clashed with what feels like a big ball of smaller topics mixed together.  I think it may be worth going about it differently as a more collaborative form.  Something that seems really difficult with the current state of the forum but not impossible.

So, how's that GM guide coming? I've introduced Wanderlust to some friends, and a GM guide would make things easier.

I regret to say that my work as a game designer has taken a series of unexpected positive turns. Fantasy Flight Games development internships have traditionally been exercises in packing boxes and playing the stuff made by the real designers, then giving some feedback. My internship somehow turned into me doing major design and development work on 3 projects, (including designing and developing an expansion for the upcoming Star Wars: Imperial Assault, FFG's biggest new title).

After my internship, I planned to get back to Wanderlust but was almost immediately offered a job by a game design startup in Belgium that I like - so now I've analyzing their project and am in contract negotiations.

Working on Wanderlust was a lot easier when I didn't have real work to do. I haven't been able to test the math behind the scenes yet.

One piece of information that would help though... What precisely is everyone desiring in a GM's guide? Making it more concrete would be excellent.

Well, congratulations on such a job Staric!

As for the GM's guide? I'm pretty sure its so people can GM the game easier. A list of inflictions, and an in-built monster creation guide would be great.

Thanks.

I have no idea what my stumbling block is on the GM's guide. I love GMing and I've done way, way more of it (as well as thinking and theorizing about it) than playing. Maybe that's the exact problem. The topic seems to big and vast to me, and I'm used to using my game design knowledge to craft anything I need on the fly. I don't need tools, which makes is very hard for me to create them. I actually design the stat blocks of every fight in a campaign of mine in the middle of the session, about 2 minutes before the fight begins (while setting up the map and so on, in a map-based game).

First up, congratulations are in order.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:One piece of information that would help though... What precisely is everyone desiring in a GM's guide? Making it more concrete would be excellent.

I think it's really the math behind a lot of things. Less of the rules and more of the execution. A monster guide would definitely be a big help in the vein of what was mentioned as the later proposal for how the Monster Compendium--structure on how to build categories of enemies as opposed to just stat blocks.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I have no idea what my stumbling block is on the GM's guide. I love GMing and I've done way, way more of it (as well as thinking and theorizing about it) than playing. Maybe that's the exact problem. The topic seems to big and vast to me, and I'm used to using my game design knowledge to craft anything I need on the fly. I don't need tools, which makes is very hard for me to create them. I actually design the stat blocks of every fight in a campaign of mine in the middle of the session, about 2 minutes before the fight begins (while setting up the map and so on, in a map-based game).

I think perception and experience may be the issue and I'm getting intriguingly parallels to issues I had in attempting to help with it. What may help, and I'm thinking of attempting, is breaking it into multiple smaller topics and doing mini guides for those as opposed to one massive GM guide.

That's an idea! A collection of resources for GMs, whether statistics or advice, rather than a vague and all-encompassing god-book. That seems like it'd be much easier to task out to multiple people and work on collaboratively, as well as make quick, tangible progress.

I was unaware of Zamul's character sheet when I made this but... I kind of think mine is a little better, mostly due to incorporated linkage.

Not that his is bad.

At all.

I'm sorry if I missed it, however I am thinking of using this system and there is no Gm Manual/Guide. It would be so very helpful if you could link me to it if it exists, and if not then please inform me of the current status of it.

Unlikely to even come. The developers have all but abandoned any attempt to work on Wonderlust or Pony Tales. Your best bet on learning how to DMs the system would be to talk to one of the DMs that are currently active.

Someone actually involved in the guide here!

We have not forgotten the guide, or Wanderlust. I have actually been helping work on it since I joined the Dev Team this year with Dan. Although I don't know how many details I am allowed to divulge, we actually hit a significant milestone recently regarding the guide. I don't know when it will be released, but we are still working on it, don't worry. I've been having fun testing it, actually, and I hope you'll like it too.