MLP:FiM Season Four: Discussion, Speculation, Interpretation, find it all here. [SPOILERS]

I made this topic because I noticed that despite the fact that we are a forum dedicated to a Roleplaying System based on Friendship is Magic, we do not really have a place here to talk about Friendship is Magic.

Despite the title, you may also talk about Seasons One and Two here, or previous generations. That is also fine! I just realize that most people will probably be talking about Season Three, since it's freshest in their minds.

So, the season three premiere.

I liked it a lot!

It was heavy on proper characterization, it took time to remind us all that the mane six are really good friends (the "teasing Rarity" scene), and I was especially impressed with Twilight Sparkle's personal growth in this episode - that was a larger array of spells than we've ever seen her use before!

The implications of Celestia knowing enough of dark magic to cast a spell are somewhat terrifying, as is Twilight Sparkle. Similarly terrifying was King Sombra because dude

What the frick was he

I mean yeah he was a unicorn with Black Magic but...who was he?! What was that about?! Where did he get those powers and actually pretty legitimate tactical strategies? And why is he so...monstrous?

And was it just me, or was he A) implied to have dark horn-based regenerative abilities and B) blown apart, with his horn clearly flying past the camera, completely whole? Guess who's coming back sometime soonish...

Then of course there was Celestia testing Twilight Sparkle, and Luna disapproving (perhaps rightfully so, perhaps not? Questions of morality!), and something very important being implied all around to happen to Twilight, especially with that black book (of prophecy?) with her symbol upon it at the end there? Some people are saying that she's going to end up being an alicorn and

I think they are probably right! Though this will mess up the fanfiction I'm planning on writing sometime soon...

Anyway, all around, it was a great episode, and I'm glad Spike got his chance in the limelight - weren't for that little guy insisting on going with Twilight throughout everything, Twilight would either A) be stuck fearful in front of a door or B) be trapped inside a spiky black magic cage with no way to get the Crystal Heart out. That means that literally the only reason Sombra lost was because Spike was there. Neat! Although I did wish the writers had used the opportunity to have Spike send the Crystal Heart down to Cadence with his dragon breath; that would've been so cool. I liked the final reprise of the song a lot a lot. Again, it was a great episode!

Well, technically two episodes, I guess.

What did you guys think? What do you guys think of the return of MLP, and its future? Feel free to discuss episode synopsis that have already been revealed in order to theorize on future episodes better, as long as you keep that junk in spoilers!

Spoiler:

I won't say I was disappointed, because I wasn't but it seemed less awesome than I thought it was going to be. Sombra was only a real threat in the last 15 min, and he was taken down so fast that he didn't even get to have a face-off with any of the Mane 6. Easily the least effective villain so far, which is funny when you think of all the pre-season spoiler hype that went down about him.

I have to dissagree with you partially, Bronymous. True, there was no big face-off between him and our heroes, and that is a bit disappointing, but I wouldn't say he was only a threat in the last fifteen minutes.

I mean, 90% of both episodes was everypony trying to keep up a shield to keep him out because they knew they stood no chance against him otherwise. In addition, again, without Spike, he would have won. We were one baby dragon away from defeat! His traps were clever, you could only access the deeper parts of his castle where he kept the valuable stuff if you knew dark magic (and really, besides him, who else does, I rhetorically ask), and, welll...

It's not that he wasn't a threat until the last fifteen minutes. It's just that his threat was a subtle one until the last fifteen minutes.

DOUB<LEPO>ST

So uh couple pictures from preview of next episode under spoilers (may be fake may not be fake)

Spoiler:

Well that's certainly a thing that happened

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:DOUB<LEPO>ST

So uh couple pictures from preview of next episode under spoilers (may be fake may not be fake)

Spoiler:

Well that's certainly a thing that happened

They're in the commercial EQD posted. They're real.

Did not see that commercial.

Went ahead and watched it on youtube commercial free because that was the only version available and I don't get HUB on my TV.

If there is at least one other person who did the same and does not want to be spoiled at all for next week, I am justified in keeping that stuff under spoilers.

I am not suggesting you ever said I was not, but somebody out there was thinking it.

More on topic...that is hilarious and amazing and a bit horrifying.

Now, I think we all learned the most important things from this opening episode:

1) The writers tossed Rarity's scarf fetish from Friendship is Witchcraft in there?
2) Rarilight OTP?!?! (It's canon now, foals: the tribalists win! Rarilight, Flutterdash, Apple Pie!)
3) Sarah Palin Pony is apparently a royal adviser?
4) They still solidly market it as a kids show.

The last one may take some expanding: It's meant to be dark and edgy, but Somber (haha, his name implies the ponies are depressed) is an Informed Villain for most of the show. It is heavily informed he is villainous... But nothing was actually done by him except try to get back to the city he once ruled. No killing, no torture, no threats until ten seconds before he dies even.

I do like Dark Celestia and Moral Luna though. The show kind of glanced over it, but... CELESTIA BANISHED AN ENTIRE CIVILIZATION FOR A MILLENNIUM! It was clearly the Sisters that wiped Sombre before and sent him off the face of the planet, and wiped the Crystal Ponies in the process. They did it once, they can easily do it again, so it really WAS just a test for Twilight. In fact, Celestia probably released the banishment specifically to create the test environment, since they were so well contained up until a few days ago. (Her surprise? Faked. I subscribe to the Chessmaster Celestia headcanon.)

...And Luna did not approve of endangering the health of Cadence, Shining, the Mane 6, and an entire civilization just so Twilight can be tested. You know, I'm kinda with Luna on this one.

Interesting theory, except that they very clearly stated that SOMBRA cursed the crystal empire, dragging them along with him when he was deposed.

And I don't know what you saw, but I saw HEAVY Rarijack fuel all through that episode.

The theory kind of falls apart when you see the reactions of the ponies who were under King Sombra's rule.

They flinch in pain when they remember what it was like.

Ok, somebody tell me what the GAK thing is all about. I've seen like eight different references to it today, including a proposed utility talent. What joke did I miss?

During the season premiere, there were numerous commercials for it (including two double-commercials) and everyone just took to it, especially considering many Bronies grew up with the original Gak.

I don't have the Hub, and they don't aire it online in an easy to reach form, so I missed the memes...

Either way: Twilight X Rarity OTP...

-Walking order: The two are always side by side in group movement (like Bonbon and Lyra, this could simply be because as a harsh colour, purple doesn't match much so they place her near white).
-The hug: Sure, people hug, on its own that's no evidence, but it's just a growing pile.
-The blush: ONLY Rarity's physical closeness inspired a blush on Twi. Every other pony she reacted normally to their approach at the end.
-The hoof-holding: Seriously. Constantly.

Rarijack was only the wordplay, that I saw, which is more friendly teasing than flirting or pairing. "It's better when its... A Rarity (Horatio Sunglasses)".

Defense of crack theory of Dark Celestia: Regardless of her causing it or not, she could have fixed it. Easily. With 1000 years more magical training, she probably wouldn't even need her sister to help. Instead, they send the Mane cast, without their elements, to do it. It is clearly an artificial test that endangers ponies; in that a proper emergency, Celestia would have fixed it on her own/with Lulu once more, were it as important as she said it was ("echoes across Equestria" or somesuch). She's a reckless pony in her old age, or she's a chessmaster. Either way, she's toying with lives of loved ones, which kinda makes her one step closer to Nightmare Flare.

As for evilness of the villain, sure. I'll give on that one.

That I'll agree with you on, mostly at least.

ON A DIFFERENT AND ENTIRELY OPTIONAL NOTE: Episode synopsis available for most of Season 3, so for those of you who don't mind looking at those: what do you hope to see, perhaps in Spoiler Tags, perhaps not, I know the title of the topic says spoilers but in my opinion that's for shown episodes not showing ones, in said upcoming episodes? For those of you who don't want to look at such, same question but uh oh! You've got less info to work with than other people!

Spoiler:

And then I go to memebase and GAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAKGAK. And then I went and found the commercial to watch, and realized I didn't miss anything because I had seen that weeks ago.

Speaking of commercials and spoilers.THIS IS BIGGER NEWS TO ME THEN GAK. I spy with my little eye, Twilight turning ponies into fillies (done already, see Cartoonlion), Scootaloo flying, aaaand legit Horses. Most likely foreign, my money's on Western European.

EDIT: Ninja'd with that, BUT now I have money on Scootaloo flying in a dream that suddenly turns into a nightmare. Bet.

1. King Sombra
Raven used the term "Informed Villain", and I have to agree. Oh, he's doubtlessly powerful and malevolent, but he lacks characterization of ANY sort throughout the episodes. This seemed in stark contrast with the previous villains of the series. Nightmare Moon was regal, Chrysalis had that self-important charm, and Discord was a fully developed trickster god. While seeing the traps that he left behind could give us clues into his "personality", but the pony himself seemed to be like the Windigos, more a phenomenon or act of nature than a thinking threat.

2. The "test"
Celestia sent Twilight and her friends off to save the Crystal Empire, and told Twilight, "Only you can help Cadence and Shining Armor with stopping Sombra, and you alone." Now, while the "making friends" command in the series pilot could be seen as partially true, this statement was downright false. In fact, Celestia said that Twilight "passed" BECAUSE she had disobeyed her orders. So...what was the real lesson here? Was the choice really "doom an entire kingdom and its inhabitants because I wouldn't accept help, or dissapoint my mentor"? Kinda seems one-sided there.

3. Cadence
TS: So you're actually the Crystal Princess?
Cadence: That's right. King Sombra used his dark magic to exile me from the castle for a time. By the time I got back, it was too late. King Sombra had already used the crystal's power to take over the kingdom and enhance his power tenfold.
AJ: Hold on a minute. You're the Crystal Princess, you know everything about the empire, including the Crystal Heart (which is apparently your actual cutie mark), and you decided not to tell us ANY of this?
Cadence: I must have been hit with the same amnesia spell as the rest of the crystal ponies. I knew that my passion was to spread love and hope, but since I had no knowledge of the Crystal Empire, it wasn't reflected in my cutie mark. Normally the spell is broken when the crystal pony remembers their past, but by the time you showed up, I was too tired from casting the spell to put two and two together. It was only once I saw the Crystal Heart again that I remembered who I truly was.

...That alt-script gives a better explanation of how the ending would make sense than anything the darn episode gives.

Still, it was fairly entertaining at times. The mane 6 playing off of each other was really well done, and the songs and visuals were top notch.

As for upcoming episodes, I'm interested to know how Twilight's "destiny" relates to...racoons?

Oh, and one last note: No, Twilight, Princess Celestia didn't TEACH you the dark magic spell. You saw her do it ONCE. You're just that powerful.

I think there's a difference between "Informed Villain" and "Characterized Villain".

Like "Informed Villain" is someone who everyone says "oh yeah that's the bad guy" but you never actually see them do anything on evil onscreen, or even offscreen in a convincing way if that could happen, I haven't seen it but I'm sure it can be pulled off.

But you're right; Sombra was not characterized at all - just a generic doomsday villain.

I think the point of the test was indeed as follows: "In the past, you have shown that you care more about tests and disappointing me than the safety and well-being of others Let us see if that holds true again when the test is specifically to stand by yourself and not let your friends help - even when it would be beneficial to yourself and others." It just came true a bit more literally than Celestia expected. Other purposes of the test probably included "handling things on your own, including knowing when you can no longer handle things on your own" and "stop being afraid of disappointing me. There are more important things to worry about out there." Part of the test may have also been seeing through the lie that you mentioned!

As to point three I...don't actually have any commentary beyond this: those are valid concerns, but at the same time there really doesn't seem to be a place in the episodes to answer them. And I don't mean script or pacing-wise, I mean...Cadence is almost falling asleep the entire time, and then after that it doesn't really feel like any character would stop the celebration to ask Cadence that stuff until several hours later and it's implied they left a lot quicker than that. Which isn't to say the questions are off the hook entirely; there were plenty of other ways to get that kinda data out. But I guess I'm saying that having that specific conversation at any point in the story actually wouldn't make sense at all.

I know I'm defending this episode a lot, but at the same time, I do see where all your points come from, you and other people who have criticized the episode. The episode wasn't perfect by any means, and to be perfectly honest and add to the pile of criticisms I found the first two songs clunky as all get-out! But overall, I really really liked this episode - I'm usually pretty willing to forgive Generic Doomsday Villains if the heroes are well characterized, and this was no exception. So I guess that's why I defend this episode a lot with these walls of text - I think it actually is a lot better than it is worse.

I agree. I think we all do: It is a very good western animation. And I can beat a four year old in an arm wrestle. That isn't a very difficult bar to surpass. We all like to come away with a win, but you know, there are harder categories to fight in. You're competing with Animaniacs, and Ren and Stimpy. Of course its good for western animation.

And that's where the issues come up. In eastern animation, and in western non-animated, a villain like Sombrero wouldn't cut the mustard as a two-parter opponent, especially one as hyped as he was. Good villains make great heroes. I think the issue is they shied away from confrontation. I agree with Lynter: There wasn't enough interaction between the "villain" and the heroes. Like, a song is a song, but take those two minutes for Not Prepared For This that were fully unnecessary, and give a scene of Samba giving a hannibal lecture to/at Twilight when he notes her use of dark magic. Something. Anything. I can rhyme off five villains that lasted as long or shorter that were far better, no matter their modus operandi: Mad Pierot, The Tome of the Night Sky, the weeping angels in their first appearance, the Valentine Brothers, and Professor Moriarty from Star Trek: TNG. And they aren't one-offs, each series mentioned has a huge number of memorable villains and heroes. Simba was the weakest of the villains thus far, and I'm including one-episode villains in this. However, if they DO things with him as the series goes on, his memory and events become important catalysts and not merely forgotten like SOME villains in the series, then I'll respect him a good deal more.

However, I WILL disagree with Lynter too: There was no lie: Twilight WAS the only pony who could do it. IF, if if IF Celestia does not consider herself a pony. You need a good pony who can cast evil magic to get through. Twilight and Twilight alone could do that barring the alicorns (I imagine he trapped the airspace so you can't just fly up). Much like episode one, it was a lie that was not a lie, using common vernacular "only you may do this", and meaning it as descriptive instead of as a command.

We all like the series. Some of us like the fandom more than the series. But we all just want the series to be the best it can. We're critical because we care. There were weak episodes in the prior seasons too, just not the season opener. I really, REALLY hope they make a coherent storyline this time around.

So my theory on Sombra was that he used to be a good king, then he used crystals and dark magic and... devolved.

Also, Gak ponies are his first child's descendants and Crystal Ponies his second child's. It's kinda a long story. This is totally me plugging my as of yet still waiting for approval fanfic on FIMfic.

Informed villain, I personally don't see it, and I argue that those saying so just are all overthinking a kids show, that what our Pony Show is regardless of how much we love it. And really regarldess,this dude was awesome in his role, he had a good deal of pain to the ponies... And did a bit of MIND RAPE on his people to make sure they'd not be able to recall how things were before he had ruled. He had sent his kingdom into the future to make sure even fewer ponies could knew how to fix things. (debatable who did this, but regardless the Crystal Empire being sent into the future ONLY HELPED HIS PLANS we'll all agree with this, right?) And even then, the only way you could even find the crystal heart, you had to first be able to cast "dark magic" something normal ponies WOULD NOT be willing to cast to open the way down, it had a huge staircase down there leading to a door that'd not stay still, so the logical impluse would be to try to open it with the same dark magic used to show the staircase. ONLY THAT'D SPRING A TRAP putting you into your own worst fear. Only the smart villains who had read the Evil Overlord list could think up a roadblocks like this for the hero to face, and we're not even done with everything he had set up. Next you've have to clime up a seemingly endless staircase that'd was only solved by climing up on it's underside... After that you got the final trap, if you even get close to the very magical Mugruffen that can be used to keep you out? BOOM the pony that walked forward into it is now trapped in a magical cage that you CAN'T leave by teleporting... That's a top class act of planning to set up stuff like that, while we only saw a glance of what his actions were, we're told that if he was in power ALL OF EQUESTRIA would end up punished and harmed by it. Sure, I'd love to see how that'd happen and we get some real picture of just how bad he'd be from just ruling one little town that for some reason was called an "empire" boy they never seem to understand how words work in show, you know? But really after seeing these levels of plans and his clearly evilness, regardless of how little we got to see the villain as a character, he WAS A VILLAIN and a DAM GOOD VILLAIN, I say discord wasn't this good at planning as King Samba was. Discord just played and toyed with the heroes and once he was done he didn't think they could fix things. Now King Samba, he was a villain that LOST and still had plans set up before hand that even a 1000 years later slowed down the heroes so much HE NEARLY WON!!! If now for Shining's Throw, Twilight sending Spike with the Crystal Heart, and Twilight being able to learn magic just JUST SEEING IT CAST ONCE, the villain would've won without question. Oh yeah nearly forgot to note, there was a page missing that I bet Twilight didn't notice thanks to Samba's magics too... Cause HOW ELSE could the bookphile Twiliy NOT NOTICE A PAGE MISSING of the only book that had info on the places history. My answer and headcannon, it was magic...

Regardless of how evil this villain was, he was dam well good playing the Villain role being a chessmaster on par with Celestia I'd argue.

RavenscroftRaven wrote:We all like the series. Some of us like the fandom more than the series. But we all just want the series to be the best it can. We're critical because we care. There were weak episodes in the prior seasons too, just not the season opener. I really, REALLY hope they make a coherent storyline this time around.

Ah, but I must respectfully argue that this was not a weak episode. Everypony besides the villain was too well-characterized for that.

It's main problem was what you just described: there was very little characterization of the villain. I don't think this is a problem that ruins the entire episode! It certainly didn't ruin Doctor Who's Blink; that's widely regarded as one of the best Doctor Who episodes of the new series, if not of all time. Now that certainly does not mean I am saying The Crystal Empire is on that level, but I do mean that I don't think it should be dragged from the level it has obtained to a lower one because there could have been more of a villain's backstory or dialogue.

The other problem you mentioned, that this episode lacks coherency...I must say, I honestly don't see it. There was a logical progression of events from cause to effect all throughout the episode. There were perhaps some questions it did not answer, yes, but certainly no place where it babbled a mishmash of syllables humankind is not capable of understanding!

EDIT: But then again despite all that, at this point I'm not really trying to get you to admit this was a good episode as much as I'm trying to get a lot of people to see my point of view on things, which perhaps is not strictly necessary at this point! I do see where you're coming from, I really do. The episode definitely had its bad points. When it comes down to it, whether this episode is good or bad is a matter of opinion, and I think we've done well enough explaining ours. I propose that if you like, you may counteract what I have already written if you disagree with it and you wish too, and after that we simply agree to disagree.

But one more thing that I do think is important: when I say "I defend this episode because more in it was good and not bad", I meant that. I did not mean that FiM is a shining example in its field, nor do I think that a work of fiction should only be compared to works in its field, because well, why should they? Good is good, and bad is bad. And Animaniacs is amazing (obviously you don't think so, but for the immediate moment my subjective views are the stars of this show). So is Avatar:The Last Airbender, and its sequel work. So were Teen Titans. Adventure Time and Phineas and Ferb and the Powerpuff Girls are all pretty good works! And I don't say that because I'm comparing them to other western animations. I'm saying that because it's pretty true for me, and more objectively because I really don't think it's fair to dismiss all of Western Animation as garbage for children.

Adventure Time is for stoners. That one isn't a kids show, I'll give you that. Avatar is good too, though I'm not sure if it lives up to its hype. There are good shows, they're just rarer.

Also, we predominantly agree. The good guys side was great, if a bit deus ex machina-y (but no more so than "Taste the Rainbow" beam). The villain does have clever traps, but no moreso than Discord. Discord, I'd argue, was FAR more prepared, in that technically you COULD climb the stairwell, there was just a time restriction in this circumstance, and while Badgercorn Guy is active, the portal down is in plain view, not hidden at all. The only real "trap" was the door. And it played on reversing the opinions of ponies, same as Discord, but was less efficient at it.

Also, re: coherent storyline, I don't mean intra-episode coherency. I mean inter-episode coherency. Prior seasons had little. Shining Armour came from left field, Celestia seems criminally negligent in her ability to forget impending evils approaching (Oh, ANOTHER one I sealed away that I knew was slowly escaping? I can't be obligated to keep track of these things!)... Pinkie Sense VS Chrysalis? Things are very episodic, I'd prefer if it stepped away from that for this season, was what I mean.

I just rewatched it, with the episodes this time. I was starting to get concerned when Floam had more commercials then gak. Just looking through for neat stuff I missed the first time.

Celestia and Luna turned Sombra into shadow, which may account for his lack of personality and characterization. I 'm pretty sure he's coming back, even though he gets shattered at the end. His horn survives, though, so that's probably what does it. I hope he comes back with Chrys and Discord. That sounds like a finale. Or a movie.

Also, apparently Berry Punch hopped the train to the Crystal Empire just in time for the fair. Super random appearance is super random. Must be after the famous Crystal Berry Wine.

Did anyone bother to check out Littlest Pet Shop? I might have had I been there, since the Hub decided to blatantly not hide the fact that they were using the same voice actors. Is it true that the dog that looks EXACTLY like Twilight is played by Tara Strong? Blatant.

Also, I need someone to get me a gif of when Cadance pops her wings right before Shining throws her. It's funny to watch.

The dog (Zoe Trent) isn't Tara Strong. She's Nicole Oliver (Celestia). Although she does look remarkably like Twilight.

Soooo, since most of this thread has been discussion about Sombra... it's time for something completely different!

1. Pinkie Spy. Please tell me I'm not the only one who thought that was the best part of the premiere? :pinkiehappy:

2. Rainbow Jerk. Seriously, what was with her this episode?

3. The Raven Empire. Seriously, before the Fair, those crystal ponies all sounded like Raven, amirite?

4. If Rarity had all those scarves, why wasn't anypony else wearing them??? Probably for the sake of the gag.

5. Twilight Darkle. Man, that was creepy (not as creepy as Darklestia, but still). Actually, I think that makes CRISISverse Twilight almost completely canon...

6. Black book. Neighcromonicon/Necroponicon, anypony?

7. Did anypony else notice that the Elements of Harmony weren't even mentioned? Makes me wonder if the Elements are programmed to only activate for threats above a certain caliber, which Sombra wasn't at that point. Or maybe Sombra managed to make himself immune? What do you think?

8. Thoughts for future seasons. I dunno about the rest of y'all, but I'm kinda hoping to see Tirek, Grogar, and the Smooze make an appearance eventually.

The Warrior of Many Faces wrote:Soooo, since most of this thread has been discussion about Sombra... it's time for something completely different!

1. Pinkie Spy. Please tell me I'm not the only one who thought that was the best part of the premiere? :pinkiehappy:

Yep. And apparently she going ninja next episode. Kage Bunshin No Jutsu!

5. Twilight Darkle. Man, that was creepy (not as creepy as Darklestia, but still). Actually, I think that makes CRISISverse Twilight almost completely canon...

Didn't really do anything for me, honestly.

7. Did anypony else notice that the Elements of Harmony weren't even mentioned? Makes me wonder if the Elements are programmed to only activate for threats above a certain caliber, which Sombra wasn't at that point. Or maybe Sombra managed to make himself immune? What do you think?

Now that you mention it, I don't think they were mentioned. I guess its because they were focused on helping Cadence and not defeating Sombra?

8. Thoughts for future seasons. I dunno about the rest of y'all, but I'm kinda hoping to see Tirek, Grogar, and the Smooze make an appearance eventually.

That'd be neat.