Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

[ZamuelNow]

(in other words, it turns into Magecraft for liars)

I can't even remotely agree with this. Also, most utilities work because they're keyed off specific skills. At best, I could see widening it to allow Streetwise since that would cover the aspect of knowing the right body language and such to use on someone.

[Zarhon]

Also, most utilities work because they're keyed off specific skills.

But this one outright requires a high skill in persuasion specifically to perform it, against an opponent (rather than a static DC), rather than give you a direct benefit to performing a skill check without needing to see if it "works" first.

Other utilities are either not defined in which skill you use, so much as the action you perform ("gain +X in your next skill check to do Y"), or give static bonuses to a skill that you determine how you use ("+X to next athletics skill check"), and a vast majority of them simply don't require skill checks to perform ("Do X.").

Maddening Mockery (identical to "He Did It" in how its performed, minus the +5 bonus. Arguably puts it in a worse position than He Did It!), Weathercrafting (any skill check you assign is allowed, so no real issue) and Sunderblade (either athletics, with a HUGE bonus, or arcana for dispelling) are some of the few utilities that outright rely on the character having high skills beforehand to actually use the utility (or rather, give a better chance of it not failing and being wasted for that day).

[ZamuelNow]

Sunderblade doesn't require Arcana. That's the whole point of it that you're using Athletics instead of Arcana, it's just that the physical object destruction bonus is much higher than the dispel.

While I certainly won't complain about He Did It! getting bumped to a +10 bonus (I'd advocate it actually), I don't see the issue with it being an opposed check. I find it borderline abnormal that it's seemingly so rare for there to be opposed rolls in campaigns, especially in interaction based situations. A high Persuasion score certainly helps but it isn't a requirement for this utility. Most of the bonuses to actions is meant to be a limiter rather than make it more broad. It's why the devs have stated they usually don't add passive skill buffs.

[Zarhon]

Sunderblade doesn't require Arcana.  That's the whole point of it that you're using Athletics instead of Arcana, it's just that the physical object destruction bonus is much higher than the dispel.

Oh, right. My mistake.  

The main thing about opposing checks is that they're technically harder than just flat DCs - the opponent makes a roll, with his own bonus (which may be higher or lower than yours), and is also capable of doing crits (leading to a nigh unavoidable/unpreventable failure when the opponent rolls a nat20, or worse, a CMC crit, against any non-crit roll of yours), plus anything the DM grants them (e.g. if a notable NPC has player abilities, or situational bonuses).

"He Did It!" doesn't require high persuasion, but if you don't have high persuasion and take the skill, you run an increased risk of your ability basically failing at the one thing you took it to do, and being a waste of a utility slot until the next extended rest. Not a fun risk to do, especially compared to other 1/day stuff that is completely reliable/guaranteed to work (Memory to Mist), or doesn't go up in smoke from one bad roll (stuff with durations).

You raise a good point with the lack of opposing checks, though. Seems most of the talents are resigned to no such things, flat DCs, or skill rolls which are then assumed as DCs for something else that might be rolled by an opponent (e.g. for Forcefield - notably, this is almost identical to opposing checks, just a bit disconnected. What was the intent of design, or intended design behind such stuff? So we can get an idea of how these things are to be built?

I'd say for He Did It!, it could use:
- More x/day uses, or allowing it to be re-used / not be expended if the opposing roll fails.
- The rewording on the lying aspects that Zamuel suggested.
- Alternate/extra/player-assigned skills that the ability can utilize for the opposing rolls, or a flat DC the opponent needs to beat, without any player roll.

[ZamuelNow]

My comment on opposed checks was actually more based off campaigns and player reactions than the system. Technically, any persuasion check is opposed in theory but GMs may opt for them to be static. More uses just may be the way to deal with this. The sheer act of failing this particular check is dangerous enough that more uses should be less of a worry since re-rolling in the same situation would probably have penalties anyway.

[Cardbo]

[-2] Harrowing - Standard Utility
Target creature suffers a -4 penalty to its next saving throw.

Seems a little weak on its own. Suggest that be made a Minor Utility. That way it could be used with a Standard Attack or Utility that inflicts a Save-ends effect.

[Paper Shadow]

Ring of Resilience - 500 Gold
Trinket
You have a +3 bonus to saving throws.

While it is very hard to see and very very minor, I feel like I should point out that on the Treasure Trove Skype Doc, the full stop at the end of Ring of Resilience's description is red...

[Zarhon]

Ring of Resilience - 500 Gold
Trinket
You have a +3 bonus to saving throws.

While it is very hard to see and very very minor, I feel like I should point out that on the Treasure Trove Skype Doc, the full stop at the end of Ring of Resilience's description is red...

This is in no way ominous.

Spoiler:

[Xel Unknown]

[-2] Harrowing - Standard Utility
Target creature suffers a -4 penalty to its next saving throw.

Seems a little weak on its own.  Suggest that be made a Minor Utility.  That way it could be used with a Standard Attack or Utility that inflicts a Save-ends effect.

Another cool and possible buff for Harrowing is to give it the power to have some type of penalty stack effect when needed. Like it could do a -2 extra penalty target creatures that already have a penalty? Hell I'd suggest maybe both buffs for Harrowing. Just seems kinda meh talent as a standard, as a minor it'd still seem a little meh to me, but if giving the stack effect along with making it a minor it might make it seem like a worthwhile talent to even use. I mean I'd figure just getting any items that automatically allow gives added on penalties to one's save ends is just in every way better and easier option to use... An option that if used does make this talent seem pointless.

[Zarhon]

What about turning it into an actual "save ends" condition?

Harrowing variant A:

Balancing factor could include having the -4 penalty not apply to the actual harrowing effect (so it saves without that penalty, but other conditions have it), or having you pick a single condition to save against (so, if you have only Harrowing active, you can prolong it easier, but if you have something else active as well, you obviously use it on the condition you want to prolong).

Or perhaps it could be given a "comboing" option:

Harrowing variant B:

A thing I noticed about both: What exactly determines the order of saving against save ends conditions? What prevents you from say, saving against a minor effect first (e.g. daze), so that the penalty of Harrowing (which applies for the "next" saving throw only) then cannot apply to a more potent effect (e.g. stun, domination...)? Is it your own choice of how you save against conditions?

If it's that last one, harrowing becomes pointless against a target with multiple save ends conditions active - the target will "waste" the penalty on what might be a minor/non hindering effect, and then be unhindered for the important ones (for instance, getting a -4 penalty to saving against "Ongoing 1" cause they pick to save against that first, and then having no penalty to save against "Vulnerability 10"). It makes harrowing incredibly inferior to the passive, always-active, applies-to-everything effects, no-pip-cost-involved traits and/or items.

[Kindulas]

Harrowing does seem pretty weak.. though we don't know quite what a SE penalty should be worth atm.

However, calling back to the empathy thing, though we stay away from static boosts too entire skills, we've usually been okay with boosts to specific things and skill subsets... I personally think that a static +5 specifically to sensing emotions wouldn't break those rules. Though... frankly, as much as I love the flavor it is in danger of creating "exactly how much information can I glean from this?" arguments, which... is... highly problematic. Perhaps a comment explaining the basic kinds of states you can detect would work, but I fear that may not be sufficient.

[Kindulas]

The fact that is is specifically the "next" saving throw is a fair point, I'd think it could at least be saves until the end of its next turn.

[Xel Unknown]

The fact that is is specifically the "next" saving throw is a fair point, I'd think it could at least be saves until the end of its next turn.

Even with this upgrade... This talent needs something to make it to some degree apealing when compared to as Zarhon said "the passive, always-active, applies-to-everything effects, no-pip-cost-involved traits and/or items." I mean by using said traits and items you can easily get to a "roll twice take lower & -7 to this save" for all of one's save ends they dish out... If anything Harrowing seems to be only a good move if somebody is dealing with save ends that for some reason had been applied by somebody else and/or didn't have a -4 to it by itself to begin with...

[sunbeam]

Well, really, if Harrowing looked like this:

[-2] Harrowing - Standard Utility
Target creature suffers a -4 penalty to saving throws until the end of its next turn.

(which I think is what Kindulas is suggesting)

Then it's the equivalent of equipping a Talisman of Incurable Illness for 1 round. Since the TII costs 4000 gold, and is based off a 5-round combat, one round of it is worth 800 gold, which isn't even worth 3 pips. So Harrowing could look like this:

[-2] Harrowing - Minor Utility
Target creature suffers a -4 penalty to saving throws until the end of its next turn.

And be nearly mathematically balanced. We could maybe throw in a small HP cost to add some flavor to the talent, and bring it up to the full cost (This suggestion is about 1/2 a pip below cost).

[Xel Unknown]

Another oddity of Harrowing is that it only works on save ends that are already or going to be given to this target creature... So... Yeah... Hard to put the maths on that. But still something to recall when thinking up. Also I really dislike how it cant be comboed like at all with those items and traits in some way... So I'd suggest this be the new upgraded version of the talent:

[-2] Harrowing - Minor Utility
Target creature suffers a -4 penalty to saving throws until the end of its next turn. If this creature is already suffering form a save end penalty increase it by 2 till the end of their next turn.

[Philadelphus]

I was thinking about the Enchanting utility talent the other day, and I got to thinking, what would it be like if, instead of picking four specific enchantments upon taking the talent, you instead got to pick four enchantments after each extended rest that you would have access to until your next extended rest? I was thinking this because the Enchantments are cool mini-talents that fulfill niche roles that can be extremely useful when those situations come up. But it's sometimes hard to predict which Enchantments will be useful in a given campaign, and you may come to decide that you should have made different choices.

I know most GMs are willing to allow limited character-editing as players adjust, but what if it was an official part of the system? If you know the party is going to be breaking in somewhere tomorrow, you can take Untraceable to mask your presence. Climbing a tall mountain? Take Climber's Grip. Investigating the Sea Ponies' underwater castle? Utilize the cool but incredibly specific Amphibious Travel. It would make Enchantment a much more flexible and valuable utility talent.

Now, I could also see how this versatility might be a bit too powerful, considering Enchantments seems to be a pretty popular and powerful talent already. So another possibility would be to attach this functionality to an additional utility talent with Enchantment as a prerequisite. That way people could just take Enchantment for the usual four specific enchantments, and then its upgrade to unlock the additional versatility.

[Kindulas]

Well, really, if Harrowing looked like this:

[-2] Harrowing - Standard Utility
Target creature suffers a -4 penalty to saving throws until the end of its next turn.

(which I think is what Kindulas is suggesting)

Then it's the equivalent of equipping a Talisman of Incurable Illness for 1 round. Since the TII costs 4000 gold, and is based off a 5-round combat, one round of it is worth 800 gold, which isn't even worth 3 pips. So Harrowing could look like this:

[-2] Harrowing - Minor Utility
Target creature suffers a -4 penalty to saving throws until the end of its next turn.

And be nearly mathematically balanced. We could maybe throw in a small HP cost to add some flavor to the talent, and bring it up to the full cost (This suggestion is about 1/2 a pip below cost).

This is, of course, balancing based off of traits without exact math to SE penalties (because really, how to you exactly quantify that when it depends on what (SE) it's affecting?) But, it's the best we've got. Still, perhaps we can alter the numbers to something that fits properly. If one round of -4 is 800 gold, than a round of -1 is 200 gold. 1000 = 3 pips, so 3*.2 = 0.6 pips. ugh. 0.6 * 5 = 3. THEREFORE we could do a -3 minor as a -5 penalty

[Kindulas]

Also Xel... I get you're point about the stacking. It is awkward that it doesn't work with builds that invest in them trait wise. Stacking is quite dangerous, however, especially with a little bit of teamwork...

[kajisora]

Now, I could also see how this versatility might be a bit too powerful, considering Enchantments seems to be a pretty popular and powerful talent already. So another possibility would be to attach this functionality to an additional utility talent with Enchantment as a prerequisite. That way people could just take Enchantment for the usual four specific enchantments, and then its upgrade to unlock the additional versatility.

I like this idea. Personally, one reason why I rarely consider taking enchantments is that I'm never sure which ones will actually be of any use. Another idea might be to add it as a sort of special enchantment: you get less versatility at a time (as it takes up a slot. Maybe even two if it seems too powerful), but you get to swap things around at each rest

[A1C Bronymous]

So Empathy got extra nerfed? Can I ask what other "applications" it had that made it so exploitable? Because as DM, whenever someone used it, all they got back was "angry", "happy", "calm", etc.

So now I'd like to know what else I can get out of it, because I just made a character that uses it at the +40 version, but the +5 for vague, one word answers is the definition of "not even worth it".

[ZamuelNow]

I sorta think that's incredibly cheating a player if they're getting 40+ on a roll and all they get out of it is a single word answer. A single word answer sounds more like a +5 or +10. Emotion is basically one half of the entire Perception skill. Furthermore, it's an At Will with no prep time so it's always available for any and all interactions. It lets you know how to continue a situation if you're interrogating, persuading, lying, or any number of things. At a +40 it becomes a must have rather than just something useful. I do wonder if this once again comes back to GMing styles and prior RPGing experiences to the point that I'm wondering if the forum should have a few GMing discussions to get into each other's heads on different topics.

[A1C Bronymous]

Well the way its worded means that they don't really get anything else. It doesn't have to be one word, but they don't get to know what the npc is thinking, whether the emotions its feeling are related to the current situation or to something else, etc. Just what its feeling at that moment. The +40 doesn't make you an empathic pscyhic, it just pretty much guarantees that you can know how they're feeling at any time, which it accomplishes nicely, and is arguably the point of even having it. Reducing it to +5 means that given success is no longer applicable, so there's almost nothing guaranteeing you get any use out of the racial at all. To me, a +5 for something so specific is not at all useful- for that one racial point I could take Freaky Knowledge and get a +5 to two randomly specific skills.

[A1C Bronymous]

Double post topic switch:

In the Tabletop book, under Keywords, you have them listed in alphabetical order, but Blinded is listed between Blocking Terrain and Bloodied. Check that.

More importantly, in tabletop, what does "Flying" actually do? There is no listing for it as a separate form of movement under the rules or Keywords, but various talents and traits make it clear that is meant to be different from regular movement, like Jumping is.

[Xel Unknown]

Also Xel... I get you're point about the stacking. It is awkward that it doesn't work with builds that invest in them trait wise. Stacking is quite dangerous, however, especially with a little bit of teamwork...

Retort, this system doesn't got much options for save end builds... Most of them are either "just in case" builds or hard to really work with. Making this one minor stacking power... Would be a very welcomed change for the system. And would turn Harrowing into a talent good for enemy save ends debuffs and ally save ends buffs... Another new options for the system which is a good thing. And hey, why is "teamwork" being a bad thing? Isn't this system BUILT to be teamwork dependent? Though if that worries you so much, add in that it can't be stacked more the once...

[A1C Bronymous]

In the Tabletop book, under Keywords, you have them listed in alphabetical order, but Blinded is listed between Blocking Terrain and Bloodied. Check that.

More importantly, in tabletop, what does "Flying" actually do? There is no listing for it as a separate form of movement under the rules or Keywords, but various talents and traits make it clear that is meant to be different from regular movement, like Jumping is.

Bump.

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