[WL] Discussion and Suggestion of Wanderlust's combat mechanics and Powers

Ok, well I had an idea for how to make combat resistances a little more viable, but its not super thought out yet. Would be DM/Player intensive, as opposed to core rules.

Actually, the thing about nova has less to do with the power of bursts, and more to do with nova's ability to turn Burst powers into single powers. So a Burst that deals too much damage widely can be turned into a powerful single target attack, meaning that the nova user has huge flexibility in damage dealing, being able to hit both a large crowd, and a solo powerfully. If I'm wrong about this, tell me though. I'd be relieved.

A1C Bronymous wrote:Ok, well I had an idea for how to make combat resistances a little more viable, but its not super thought out yet. Would be DM/Player intensive, as opposed to core rules.

I'd be interested to hear it when it's ready.

mjh6 wrote:Actually, the thing about nova has less to do with the power of bursts, and more to do with nova's ability to turn Burst powers into single powers. So a Burst that deals too much damage widely can be turned into a powerful single target attack, meaning that the nova user has huge flexibility in damage dealing, being able to hit both a large crowd, and a solo powerfully. If I'm wrong about this, tell me though. I'd be relieved.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you clarify?

It's that the power of Nova means that a player could potentially hit as powerfully against a solo as other single target focused characters, while still being the best against group battles, making the nova builds possibly too powerful compared to others. That's my worry, but I haven't seen nova in action yet, so I could be wrong.

You're entirely right about that. But it isn't actually a problem.

Burst specialists pay for the versatility by being a burst-specialist in the first place. After all, any player can take one burst attack in case they're in a fight where such things are important. The burst-specialist could have taken some single attack powers too, but chose to only take burst powers in the first place. Also, except in massive horde-battles, single-target attacks are usually just as valuable in larger battles too. Especially because it's good strategy to focus down one enemy at a time to lower overall enemy damage output.

However, if you want to focus on bursts for character reasons - you get seriously gimped in fights you don't have enough targets for. The nova feature was created to help undo the versatility damage burst-specialists had done to themselves. Any player interested in versatility can get it from the sheer virtue of taking a diverse set of powers to begin with (just as a player can take this feature).

A1C Bronymous wrote:Also, something I would note is that the switch from 4 starting pips to 3 is a HUGE curveball. I have knowledge of a combat build that is UNGODLY powerful- or at least it was, until I reread the fine print and found I was missing a pip to start it off. A single turn extra, maybe, but that single detail actually shows how much more care went into the mathematics of the new system.

Yeah, lower starting energy but the + moves doing more helps the system feel better as far as the flow is concerned.  The buildup phase feels like you're doing more.

mjh6 wrote:For one thing, the healing powers seemed a bit boring and simple, although that might be because they are individually more powerful, it feels.

With healing as a role, I feel you only really need half the build: A + energy heal, a strong single target heal, a strong aoe heal, and something that grants a saving throw.  From there, you have a fair bit a breathing room though there probably could stand to be a few more with different mechanics.  There's also the whole issue where healing is the role where everyone wants one on the team but not everyone wants to play it.

But more than that, as a player, I enjoy building characters as much as playing itself, and as a whole, the different categories feel a bit disconnected due to the more gimmicky sections. For instance the way the Monk Section is laid out, it feels like to use the Monk powers, you need to take mostly or only monk powers. Same thing goes for the berzerker powers. This may be just me, but I just wish that the system gave off a bit more flexibility in it's powers.

I think Berserkers have more flexibility than it initially seems.  All you truly need is one power to build adrenaline and one to spend it but No Pain, No Gain offers breathing room if you've got incoming healing.  Monks do tend to be heavily locked into the set and I'm glad they got the new powers they did.  I think Monk combos probably fare better when played than when they're looked at.  Another thing is that the Opener, Combo, and Finisher don't necessarily require the same target so it's not as bad of a minion sweeper as I originally thought.

mjh6 wrote:Okay, maybe I said it wrong. I actually wouldn't consider myself an optimizer, it's just that when it comes to building a character, I don't want to build the same one each time. So, If I want to deal burst damage, I don't want to have to use the same Elementalist techniques that are the only option to do burst damage that every one would use

They haven't always went well but anyone think we should hold a few build challenges for people to try building concepts, just for curiosity sake?

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Burst powers are REALLY hard to design.

Let's take the following.

"Deal 1d10 damage to target enemy".

This is a basic single-target attack and looks pretty nice. Let's turn it into a four-target burst.

5.5 damage is the average for a d10. Simply rolling a d10, due to crit chance, is worth 1.25 damage. So the burst power needs to end up dealing a total of 6.75 damage.

6.75 divided by 4 is 1.6875 damage. So this effect is going to have to deal an average of... Less than 2 damage to each target.

That's really, really hard to make look exciting.

Fundamentally, it's very difficult to design burst powers that look exciting and are also balanced. We have to use other effects that look a lot more powerful than they actually are (like energy gain, rolling d20s and similar) in order to balance things out. The space to combine these things is very limited, and the more we do things like that - the less special the cool things seem (which defeats the value of using the seemingly-too-cool things in first place).

These design constraints strangle the design of burst powers.

There are some other factors too, quite a few smaller things (such as burst powers being very narrow without the nova feature), but the above issues are significant.

I wonder if there's still a few more design space options for bursts.  Self damage and Adrenaline seem like they'd open up another Berserker option.  The Nuker feature feels like it could stand to have one more large energy cost move.  I also wonder about the validity of moves similar to Fireblast where drop kick one dude in the mouth then you push a few others over.

Oooh! Build competions! I never got to participate in one before!

ZamuelNow wrote:I wonder if there's still a few more design space options for bursts.  Self damage and Adrenaline seem like they'd open up another Berserker option.  The Nuker feature feels like it could stand to have one more large energy cost move.  I also wonder about the validity of moves similar to Fireblast where drop kick one dude in the mouth then you push a few others over.

I'm sure there's untapped space that we missed on our initial passes. I'd be interested to see some ideas for powers that are genuinely different than the ones already in existence - in that they enable gameplay styles or fantasy concepts not currently served.

One thing that is missing is mass status affects. There is exactly one basic Burst power that does something other than damage and healing:

[-2] Plague - Standard Action (Attack, Affliction, Burst)
Up to 3 different target creatures suffer 5 Ongoing Damage (save ends).

In particular, I think mass weakness would be cool. It's useful in a variety of situations, and the inflation that weakness gets (relative to damage) mathematically helps compensate for the normally underwhelming nature of bust powers.

Good point on the inflated numbers of weakness (comparable to healing) helping combat the perception problem. I don't like making GMs track weakness on multiple creatures - and weakness slows fights down - which can be bad for gameplay. However, I'd be interested to see a design of it that takes these factors into account.

Perhaps damage and weakness in the same AOE might be a nice design, and good for a bit of flavor too.

An easy suggestion that MUST be put in the GM guide when it comes to Monsters, REGARDLESS of any system: Spreadsheets are all combat's friend... Use them for an easy cheat-sheet to quickly change the values as the combat moves forward. Also try to keep a timer of some type in play. Be it a Real-World or a type of Round Limit... To help add in a "third outcome" to the battles. Biggest thing I hate with the combat. (mostly at Pony Tales combat at this point, but I fail to see how it'd be really all that different in Wanderlust Combat they're basically the same, well in how I'd picture they'd feel to me) Is that there is only TWO outcomes that happen. One the PCs take all enemy targets = THE ONLY EVER win state that ends combat, and depending on how the combat flowed and went, it could feel like a very hollow victory or worse I've personally seen. Enemies deal a total party KO = THE ONLY lose state that ends combat... Adding a timer or "limit" to something that'll happen in the combat that'd be narratively seen as a "draw" type of deal, would be a very wise option that should be talked about for GMs and PCs alike.

That's a great point about adding wrinkles to combat on timer. It does a lot of great work for adding variety to missions and preventing infinite stall tactics.

I'll need to sit down and make a list but I've had various thoughts on Wanderlust combat. The short answer is that it's way more stable for a GM to run, Features add a lot (...pending on the feature), but some aspects lack wow factor.

ZamuelNow wrote:I'll need to sit down and make a list but I've had various thoughts on Wanderlust combat.  The short answer is that it's way more stable for a GM to run, Features add a lot (...pending on the feature), but some aspects lack wow factor.

Wanderlust as a whole system lacks a wow factor. We were way too obsessed with balance, to the point we intentionally killed anything that could synergize in cool ways. It could use some serious spicing up. Even if that just means porting in a bunch of cool ideas from PT.

High level system fixes may take some work but since I have your ear, what would need to be done to make an official proposal for individual combat powers? I've worked on a few with Sunbeam's help with the math and just never sat down to make a proper proposal for getting them added. Looks like the time is right to make that proposal.

ZamuelNow wrote:High level system fixes may take some work but since I have your ear, what would need to be done to make an official proposal for individual combat powers?  I've worked on a few with Sunbeam's help with the math and just never sat down to make a proper proposal for getting them added.  Looks like the time is right to make that proposal.

Honestly, I consider Wanderlust and Pony Tales both 'open source' at this point. You've probably worked on it and played it more than I have at this point. Maybe you and any still interested should form a council of your own, or just make your versions of the system with my blessing.

I'm of mixed opinion on working on it more due to the amount of groudwork laid out before I even found the system. That said, I'm honored by the sentiment. Still waiting to hear back from a few people on that committee concept.