New Build-Your-Own-Race Expansion is live!

Ramsus wrote:Naw, he's just a good game designer.

Hes a devil to work with though. Seriously. Sure the rough draft of one of the new destinies let you turn a enchanted sword into a nuclear bomb that could level half a planet. And yes it might have been the level 4 talent. That doesn't necessarily mean its bad!

I still say this latest update would've gone over better if you had more pony-flavor...

Ramsus wrote:Pony Tales is the more flavorful system and more of us are playing it. It seems weird to lower our racial value to match LL's instead of raising LL's to match PT's.

From lurking around on these forums this is something I kinda want to address (after talking it over with Staric)

LL and Ponytales aren't really separate systems as much as it is that LL is our way of play testing changes to the Ponytales system. An easy way to look at it would be that LL is the test server for Ponytales. Nothing that gets added to Ponytales (with the exception of this Race update) isn't first played and tested in LL to see if it will improve Ponytales. So the new destinies, the combat board, items ect. ect. all are played in LL to make sure they don't break the game so that when we release the update to the general public we know that it would cause everything to fall apart.

As for the idae of raising LL's racial value to match PT's we are considering it. It does give more options and more options is usually a good thing.

Then this means all the more you need to go and add as much ponyish flavor to the talents... Cuase before the new update, Pony Tales felt like a real pony RPG system... Now it more comes across as a D&D system that's trying to act pony. There were other unforseen problems too. But that's the ONE problem I'm really shocked that it seemed you didn't care you were going to make.

(Translation of above: "Ugh, this update DOESN'T taste like horse! Take it back!")

The system is set up to harshly reinforce Gameplay and Story segregation, you might as well have a split-time screen-jerk and the image burst into shards or swirls when a battle begins. This is restricting to some players. At the same time, changelings and dragons may only have two skills instead of three, and need to use a utility to get that third one back. This is also restricting to some players.

When working within a system, there are gives and takes. I mentioned elsewhere I enjoy using non-combat abilities in combat applications for other systems, and cannot do that here, but that's fine, I chose to play in this system, I accept that I can't do everything. If the dragon is too powerful, it will be nerfed. (I love that I was a part of making that word a "thing"). Any time something is changed, it will please some, and annoy others. There is no way to please them all. StairC, I'm sure you're familiar with DMing styles... They apply for systems too. I'd say don't be a Monty Haul type developer. Giving too much can hurt just as much as not enough. Do what you feel is best for the system, not what one or two loud voices decry.

...But keep a backup document so when people complain they liked Version 3.5 better than 4th, they can go back to it.

I don't disagree, it is a minor thing... But it's what I LOVED of pony tales... It felt like a game that was built by bronies for bronies... But now... It feels like it was built by D&D nerds that wanted to make money off of this whole pony thing. And yes, I am aware that no money is needed to read the docs, just... That's what I really feel was the problem here, and if it didn't have this one misstep, it'd have gone over better.

Xel: You're worried about the flavor? All right. I got free time, so if Dan doesn't mind, I'm going to copy the two docs and edit them to be pony-y just for ya.

Talent Show: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xH9VjK2-IKvzCekDskVqPSGkY_azu6FAJNk4fhbjVkA/edit

Genetic Engineering: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ezcfyIjL4--MGGqwmOGXakX4cu44cYZNmmjTLyno0Dw/edit

Working on flavoring the things right now. If dan is rebalancing things, I'll work with that sometime over thanksgiving myself.

Xel, keep in mind that this is all a work in progress. It's typically better to make sure people like the mechanics and then work on the flavor if you're in a situation where one has to happen first. I'm sure in a little while we'll end up with pony flavor (mmm delicious?) for a lot of stuff.
Edit: Or someone could go "I will do that now all on my own!" I guess......

Mori, I understand that both systems are intended to be the same system, it just seems that you guys sometimes don't consider the fact that we're all playtesting the system. Yeah, LL is where you guys who are doing the official development are playtesting stuff but, that's a pretty small sample size. As such, I refer to the two systems, pre-this change as somewhat separate entities as they functioned a bit differently.

Raven, while it can be fun to mix your combat and non-combat stuff, mixing the two is usually what causes balance issues in almost every system. One of the good things is that we don't have to worry about that at all here. And Fury does have a point, in specific GM approved situations it's probably allowable, just not in general.

I don't think we're being "just loud voices" here Raven. While some of us may just be dropping in our opinions, we are overall presenting reasons for why we have those opinions and why those reasons matter.

Your right... But it's just, what I felt was something that need to have been said is all. It was something that only right now did it really click to me what I didn't like about this update. Cause I knew it was coming, and I thought I'd enjoy it, but something wasn't right. And just realize it was the flavor...

Ramsus wrote:

Mori, I understand that both systems are intended to be the same system, it just seems that you guys sometimes don't consider the fact that we're all playtesting the system. Yeah, LL is where you guys who are doing the official development are playtesting stuff but, that's a pretty small sample size. As such, I refer to the two systems, pre-this change as somewhat separate entities as they functioned a bit differently.

Fair enough, and I don't mean any disrespect to anyone playing Ponytales because what you all do does help a lot. Thats actually why I signed up for these forums, to get all of your opinion on the changes because feedback is different and needed. Also it seemed like Staric shouldn't be the only designer on the forums.

I've sorta been wondering who the other designers were and like.... in general what you guys are doing. It's all sort of oddly detached from us. We make a lot of content and play around with it and then..... stuff gets made official or rules changes happen and for the most part we mostly have no idea why. (Though I guess we know why this one is happening. )

All right, if you missed it I linked the /pending/ edited for Pony Tales expansions. Not really doing much other than editing names.

I might open the doc up for other people to help edit, though. It's a LOT of things to rename.

Awesomesauce Logan. Satisfies as a backup too.

Ramsus, I wasn't meaning to come down hard there, if any offense was taken it was not intended as such. Hence the joking "but acknowledge that people won't like it, so don't force 'em" bit about switching editions at the end. I'm a bit abraisive, unfortunately. I simply wanted to chime in that not everyone feels as negatively about the changes, since often, the only response one hears to changes is the negative side. I don't mind it too much, is all I really wanted to say there. It's not only neigh-sayers in the audience. I acknowledge your desire to improve the system in your own input, though, it isn't just loud complaining. I know.

Genetic Engineering has been tweaked as much as it can be, and me and Ramsus are finishing up the Shapeshifting in the Talent Show.

Edit: Da da da da. Talent show is now Ponified too. link above.

the name spectral steeds implies horses you might want to change that.

Twilight used Spectral Steeds for her Gala Carriage. I don't think I have to change it XD

ponies riding horses is just strange (try to envision it in your mind's eye) also did you see how freaked out everypony else was?

*shrug* But it's a thing that happened. I mean, lots of things they do are freaky.

So how long until my work is needed again because Dan rebalanced everything and moved things on the sheet around?

So, no explanation and/or viable answer to my question, then? Is someone looking into it, or...

*shrug* No idea man.

Btw, I'm wondering something. What is the point of Magical Attunement?

The way I see things there's only three options for detecting magic. 1) Roll Arcana. 2) Roll Perception. 3) Don't.

Option 3 doesn't really make any sense in either base setting as far as I can tell as it would involve trained Wizards constantly stumbling into magical traps for no reason and never being able to do anything about that.

Option 2 is.... sorta pointless as anyone who can do anything about magic are people with high Arcana.

Option 1 (perhaps coupled with 2) is just sort of how I would assume things would work as default, without any racial or utility powers involved. It just wouldn't make sense if anyone with high Arcana couldn't do this.

So... yeah? What's the point? Let people who can't do anything about magical effects pay to acquire something those who can get for free? I guess that's.... nicer than not being able to but, it sorta seems pointless or at least not good enough to be worth a whole point if that's all it does. Seems like taking Freaky Knowledge: Detecting Magic + Pasta Hat, would be flat out better.

And if that's supposed to be how people ever detect magic..... blargh. All adventuring teams without that would be so hosed I can't even make sense of it.

I think its because Arcana is initially the only way to detect magic that isn't obvious, and this lets characters who don't use magic a better shot at it. A magic user is naturally going to run with a higher arcana, so they'll be able to detect it using that skill, but those who don't use magic but still want to be able to sense a magical effect can use that Attunement. It makes sense there would need to be a trade-off, sense perception based detection isn't a natural thing that just anyone can do.

Eeeyup, it's applying Perception to what should be Arcana.

I think the MOST important thing here is this:

1) You can make passive perception checks.
2) You cannot make passive Knowledge: Arcana checks.

Therefore, an invisible enchantment trap that drives whoever walks through a door insane... The Arcanist would know it when the party trips it, and how to disable it then, after damage has been done. The Attuned, however, has a shot of seeing it BEFORE a party member is driven insane. Likewise, if you're in a room full of ancient egyphon artifacts, and only one is magic (and it isn't famous or glowing or anything), the mage can hold each item and Its Witchcraft-check every single one of them individually, or the Attuned can give one quick glance across the room and see it. Bad guy switch out the magic necklace for a normal one? You know it BEFORE he hands it back to you. Unicorn hiding their horn under their hat? Well, you get the point.

More tellingly, if there's a wide group of identical-seeming soldiers, you can tell the leader by the most heavily enchanted one, well before combat begins.

Magic isn't just the sticky goop that comes from a unicorn's horn. It's hidden everywhere. I think this ability is a bit niche, but plenty powerful for a 1-point power.

Yeah, it's kind of turning it into a spot skill instead of search from good old 3rd edition.