New Build-Your-Own-Race Expansion is live!

For things like Flight and PK I think those make sense in both places. Some races are just going to (almost) always have those things, even if everyone else can get them.

You know,

This racial creation system has been bothering me for a while now, and I wanted to bring this up in the discussion. I may be late to the party to be mentioning my concerns now - but I really want to get this off my chest.

Part of the problem with this system for me has to do with flavor. I've heard the argument that with this genetic engineering expansion, it would grant people more potential for flavoring their races to make them distinct. That's cool. I like that idea. It allows things like Diamond Dogs and Sea Ponies to be played, along with Phoenixes, Gremlins, etc. - even if they don't have an official racial template.

-Like I said, no problem there.

I also don't have any problem with GMs using this expansion, but as Ravenscroft has brought up elsewhere, this system should be limited to GMs only. I don't think it should be a player expansion.

Here's why - because of the idea of players flavoring their characters to make them distinct within their races (so for instance, making an Earth Pony with the racial ability to fly).

First off, let me explain that, to me, it seems like a race's flavor should be something that every member of that race shares, no matter if they're from (for instance) the North Pole or the tropics, heaven or hell, Earth or the Moon. Though the specimens of a race may vary, usually that variation isn't so extreme that it makes one member of a race unrecognizable from the other. There are still certain characteristics that both members share which unifies them as a race. When these similarities are represented in some way by game mechanics, it helps players feel like they are actually playing an "Earth Pony" or a "Changeling." I personally get a sense of satisfaction from knowing that the race I chose in a system distinguishes me from the next guy. Even if they choose the exact same build, etc., our races just have some abilities that make us different from one another, but that also make us similar to others of our kind. It just helps with the immersion of an RP.

That typed however, this system promotes the creation of racial specimens that are as mechanically alien from each other as... well... aliens. Going back to the Earth Pony example, you could make an Earth Pony with flight and ponykinesis like an Alicorn, or that has shape-shifting powers like a Changeling. Two characters of the same race could potentially share no mechanical similarities whatsoever outside the fact that they are quote-unquote "Earth Ponies," "Griffons," "Buffalo," or what have you. They would have no unifying mechanics, only unifying fluff - and though I know that at least some players are fine with that - I find it to be a problem because we lose racial flavor... or more like we lose the concept of "race" altogether. We lose the sense of immersion that comes from all the member of a race having something that ties them together. Everyone can just become anything and everything, and there's no unifying mechanics at all. Dischord reigns and the world as we know it ceases to -

-Okay, so maybe it's not that bad.

But here's something else that bothers me about this expansion. It came up yesterday when I was playing around with altering one of my own PCs. I was thinking, how could I make a Mad Scientist Unicorn? Well, I started looking through the document and picking out some abilities that sounded like they would fit flavor-wise... Things that would represent the inventions a mad scientist could make... And then, about half-way through the racial ability list I started to realize - I wasn't making a race. I was just picking more utility talents.

That's what it felt like to me.

Utility Talents.

I was trying to pick racial powers that would explain the Doctor's crazy contraptions - but those weren't with him when he was born. Those weren't a part of what it meant to be a Unicorn. Those were just things he got later on in life, that he built and/or learned how to wield himself over time.

When I figured that out, I suddenly felt that if I used the racial expansion, I might say I was a Unicorn, but I wouldn't feel like I was a Unicorn. This all goes back to the RP feel that I was trying to get across earlier. I felt like a munchkin instead of a role-player - and I found that to be very upsetting.

So the bottom line is this. The Racial Expansion might allow you to further customize your character - but do we need that kind of customization when we already have all the new options for utility talents anyway that have broken down racial barriers so much as is? If you want to be a flying Earth Pony, you can get that utility - but I think you should still have the racial staples that unify you with other Earth Ponies. If we allow players to basically make their own races, then we're going to lose each race's unique flavor, and that's something I'd like to avoid.

It seems no one has a problem with the mechanics, but just with the flavor surrounding them.

The racial creation system is intended to let players and DMs play with whatever race they want in their campaigns without worrying about breaking the balance or waiting for designer approval. It's also intended for situations where a race has a highly flavorful ability that some players just don't want or doesn't make sense in a special version of the setting (like fallout equestria), allowing quick and balanced tradeoffs.

Naturally, your race isn't supposed to be used as a utility-talent bank. If you're using this for that, make *sure* you run this by your DM.

Xand and I already had parts of this discussion. I'm still of the stance that if you need the mechanics to tell you what your racial identity is, you're approaching this system completely wrong.

Edit: Also, there are no "GM only" tools. As far as the forum goes, most of the players are also running games. Which means they'd have access to those tools and get the same ideas and just be frustrated that someone decided that they should be discouraged from having them.

Yeah, I personally don't see why this make-your-own-race thing cant be used to just make yourself some abnormal version of the normal race. Or something... And why that's a bad thing... Just don't get that.

Xand: I want to ask you something. What's so wrong about being unique within your race?
Pinkie is different from AJ is different from Doctor Whooves is different from Bon-Bon.
Rarity is different from Twilight is different from Shining Armor is different from Lyra.
Rainbow is different from Fluttershy is different from Pound Cake is different from Derpy.
Who's to say that somepony can't still be one of these races, but have a different racial make up as others? After all, AJ can use her tail dextrously, where Pinkie can't and Pinkie can move faster than lightning.
Fluttershy may not be good at flight, but she can call animals and speak with them, unlike Rainbow and her Super Awesome flight.
Rarity may not be as adept at magic as Twilight is, but she can definitely beat her when it comes to crafting disguises (Of regal status)

You can still technically be a canon race, but be different than others. Fluttershy probably has the "It's almost like flying" where Rainbow has "Flight" specifically for example.

I have to side with Xand on this one, but that's because I'm of a Simulationist persuasion, so it makes intuitive sense for the mechanics and flavor to be so closely tied together. Races should define the minimum of abilities that link members of a different race together. For example almost every pegasus can fly. If you want to play a pegasus that can't fly, but get something else instead, then you should be able to do that, provided you get approval from your GM. For example, a while back, I came up with a character concept for a Wild West setting where the character is a one winged pegasus with a mechanical arm grafted on to his missing wing. Interesting concept, but it should require GM approval before you run with it.

I can understand a player using the Genetic Engineering expansion to create a race that doesn't yet exist because they want to play one. I've made up a few races myself, ones not found anywhere in the show canon, so I might want to play as one of those someday. But I don't like the idea of recreating an already existing race, but making it different. That's what utility talents are for (and Logan, all those differences? Utility talents). It's nice that we have a point system to tell us if a race is balanced or not, but I think that that freedom shouldn't necessarily be given directly to the players. Furthermore, I think the point system should be a guide, but not a hard rule: if you can make a race that seems perfectly balance, but it's off by one point one way or the other, then you shouldn't have to worry about fudging it to conform to a point total. Conversely, if you do conform to a point total, but a race seems over- or underpowered, you might look at adjusting the point costs, but you risk throwing everything else off if you do that.

TL;DR, I like the idea of the expansion as a tool for building new races, but I don't want it to degrade into bonus utility talents. I think it should primarily be restricted to developers, and that a list of officially approved races should be maintained, complete with alternate versions of the same race, since people's headcanon might differ. Since we're still in a testing phase, though, playing a little loose is probably a good idea, as long as we have the right mindset. Pick racial traits that make sense for the race, collectively, not just for your particular character.

EDIT: This post was a badly worded mess, you're better off if you didn't read it.

Greywander wrote:If you want to play a pegasus that can't fly, but get something else instead, then you should be able to do that, provided you get approval from your GM. .

Agreed. This is an easy fix in the simple presentation of the expansion. I'll edit it later, and that should fix most of the weird things.

Don't forget to make note of editing the Pony Tale's flavor fulled version as well.

Do I really have to point out that just because Stairc or someone else who developed a race decided they get Epic Pwny and Friend in Deed instead of say Attack the Day, Freaky Knowledge, and Naturally skilled, it doesn't mean that all members of that race have to look like that? It's arbitrary choices from the developers at the get go. They're mechanics. They don't make the flavor of the race. Swapping out some for another or even all of them doesn't change the flavor of the race in any way. Telling everyone that if they want to play X race they have to have a bunch of mechanics they don't want for their character is ridiculous. Especially when combined with the Utility system that makes everyone so versatile. You're basically just penalizing them because of which race they want for flavor if you prevent people from choosing their own racial setups.

Logan's point is completely right. All members of a race, heck most, are not that identical. They share similarities yes but, have you looked at the race you belong to? Is every single member good at mechanics? Equally skilled at piloting or writing fiction without any training? Equally strong /dextrous/intelligent all summed up when they reach adulthood? Stubborn? Quick witted? Nimble fingered? Possessing of equal eyesight? No no no, and endless more no's. Members of a single race may share vague similarities (like having wings or not) but, in no way can you say they're all naturally good at the same things (like whether or not they're actually any good at flying).

Edit: We weren't assuming GM approval? Aren't all characters ever allowed based on GM approval?

((Edit: Okay, so Greywander beat me to the punch here, but I spent an hour on this post, so it's going up in it's entirety anyway!))

LoganAura wrote:Xand: I want to ask you something. What's so wrong about being unique within your race?
Pinkie is different from AJ is different from Doctor Whooves is different from Bon-Bon.
Rarity is different from Twilight is different from Shining Armor is different from Lyra.
Rainbow is different from Fluttershy is different from Pound Cake is different from Derpy.

Logan: Okay, for one thing, I honestly think you're being a little condescending here. Do you really think I'm so dense that you need to give me that many examples? Or is it that you're questioning my dedication to the MLP fandom in general here?

There's nothing wrong with being different within your race Logan - I'm not saying there is. And yes - obviously, not every pony is a carbon copy of an Earth Pony/Unicorn/Pegasus template. But you know something about all those examples you gave? The Earth Ponies all lack magical horns or wings, while the Unicorns all have the former, and the Pegasi all have the latter. My point is, all these ponies have defining characteristics that make them each a unique race of beings, be it Earth Pony, Pegasus, or Unicorn.

This is what I mean by racial flavor.

If you want diversity within a race Logan, that's what the Utility Talents are for. I don't think the racial abilities should have anything to do with the diversity within a race at all.

LoganAura wrote:Who's to say that somepony can't still be one of these races, but have a different racial make up as others?

Who's to say?

Me!

-And no, I'm not serious.

Not completely anyway... (;

But you know, what is the definition of a race?

It depends on the person you ask really, but to me, it's a group of organisms that share similar traits and characteristics, traits and characteristics they received at birth. That might not be the Webster definition, but that's what I think of when I think of the term 'race.'

Now, if you're definition of 'race' differs from mine Logan, that may be why we're not seeing eye to eye, but under my definition - if you have a different racial make-up, then technically, you're not the same race. You've become a new race entirely.

I'm going to repeat myself again here, but think about it.

All pegasi have wings.

All Unicorns have horns and ponykinesis.

These are defining characteristics of those races. Without those features, they become something else. Now, I know you're going to ask me, "What about the pegasi that lost their wings?" or "What about the unicorns that lost their magic?"

-All in good time my friend, all in good time, but first...

LoganAura wrote:After all, AJ can use her tail dextrously, where Pinkie can't and Pinkie can move faster than lightning.
Fluttershy may not be good at flight, but she can call animals and speak with them, unlike Rainbow and her Super Awesome flight.
Rarity may not be as adept at magic as Twilight is, but she can definitely beat her when it comes to crafting disguises (Of regal status)

All of these examples sound like differences in choice of Utility Talents to me, not differences in race. AJ took Mechanics and Athletics based abilities while Pinkie took 4th Wall Breaking shenanigans and the Hippogriff speed utility. Fluttershy took animal empathy talents while RD took tons of flight and weather-based awesomeness. Twi went straight magic while Rarity took things like "Art of the Dress."

-But at the end of the day, both the Pegasi have wings and can fly, both the Unicorns have horns and PK, and both the Earth Ponies lack any of that. If Twi was born with wings she'd have been an Alicorn, and if Pinkie had wings she'd be a Pegasus.

LoganAura wrote:You can still technically be a canon race, but be different than others.

True. You can still technically be a canon race, but be different from others of your race. That's exactly why there are tons of options for what utilities you can take (especially with the recent update) to make your character truly a unique member of their race. But if you use racial abilities to make your character unique, then you're not really playing with a member of your race.

That said, let me go back to the issue of flightless Pegasi and magicless Unicorns. If you want either, then why not just use the Earth Pony racial template and "say" you're a Pegasi or Unicorn? That way, you're going by a pre-approved template, and you're still getting the same fluff effect you were looking for.

Likewise, if you want a Unicorn that can fly due to her magic, or an Earth Pony that can use PK because of his gadgets, just get the utility skills. If those characters were born with those abilities then they wouldn't be the same race any more - and that would eliminate the unifying mechanics that create racial flavor in the first place.

At the end of the day, that's exactly what I want to avoid.

A loss of flavor.

...And yeah, I think the solution here is to just agree at the most basic level on what makes a race a race. For Unicorns it's magical horns with PK powers, for Pegasi it's wings (and possibly weather-crafting), for Earth Ponies... It's debatable, but they certainly don't start out able to fly or use magic.

Funny how strong your opinion of this is on paper and not in practice Xand since you're letting me play an Earth Pony with FK, Friend in Deed, and Seize the Day! instead of Friend in Deed and Epic Pwny (which does practically nothing at all for my character the way she's set up), precisely because it fits that individual character more.

Edit: Also it's ridiculous how you're calling Logan condescending for providing examples and yet don't find that assuming we're all so stupid that we'd make/allow people to play character with no logical reason to have racial traits.

Edit2: How many times do I have to say it? MECHANICS DO NOT DEFINE FLAVOR!

Edit3: To sum up your point, what you want to avoid is people playing an Earth Pony who is good at flying and doesn't have a bunch of mechanical traits that are totally useless for what they want to play. So really, what you want is denial of flavor because we must all be slaves to the will of the race creator!

I only say this. NO GM should be not allowed to have a player use this system the way you all seem to feel is just plan wrong. Because of that fact that it just plan works. Sure, most really shouldn't work to try that way first. But if you got a great idea, I say, you should go with it and try it out. Players should be allowed to build whatever race they want be it just a touched up version of a normal race or a totally new race that's not yet official. And I don't get WHY you lot keep not liking that option now exists. And I say it'd not be a loss of flavor if a player were to use it this way. If anything I'd ague it can only ADD to it. Making new and fun experiences for all.

Xand, Greywanderer do either of you have any experience making game systems, in particular races? I'm going to assume the answer is no. If you did you'd know that races are granted mechanics on the basis of "Well, this looks like it works pretty well." and not "This is the only way this race can work!"

I just noticed that the Ponykinesis Racial trait isn't in the list for the genes.

It wasn't to begin with. If you go back....um... a lot of pages. You'll find where I was saying it should be a 1 pointer to match up with Flight and FK being in there. I believe Stairc agreed to test that out and.... *shrug*

Ramsus wrote:Xand, Greywanderer do either of you have any experience making game systems, in particular races? I'm going to assume the answer is no. If you did you'd know that races are granted mechanics on the basis of "Well, this looks like it works pretty well." and not "This is the only way this race can work!"

Theres also a mad dash to give everything flavor. Anyways, the point of the system is to make races. Not break lore. So, you know, check with your GM before breaking canon.

Ah, well there are some vastly underpowered Unicorns if it costs one point. Then again that'll just mean we all the more to buff Unicorns.

Ramsus wrote:MECHANICS DO NOT DEFINE FLAVOR!

Ramsus, on that point, you're just plain mistaken.

Mechanics do define flavor.

Why would we be having this discussion otherwise? You want to be able to get different mechanics on your characters so that you can define their flavor. You're relying on mechanics to define your characters whether you realize it or not.

I didn't mention this on Skype, but I'll mention it now. I don't see myself as a hypocrite, and I don't appreciate you calling me one. I was going to give you guys the option to test the racial system in the P-Files because I felt that we have a responsibility to play-test this system in all it's expansions. We play the game so we need to support it. That doesn't mean that I liked the idea of you guys changing your racial abilities, but you pick and choose your fights, and I thought this was one fight I could let you guys win.

After I tried playing around with the system myself though, I realized I didn't like it because it just made me feel like I was getting extra Utility Talents and losing racial flavor. It didn't feel like I was making a race. It felt like I was adding to my utility belt. That's what I want to avoid in this system, and if you can't see my side, then at least respect me as a contributor to this community.

I understand that you have a lot of experience with this system since you basically created it Ramsus, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on this topic that's still valid.

We're having this discussion because you feel that mechanics define flavor. But even if it does for you, that doesn't mean it does for everyone else. I've had no problems with my Earth Pony flavor on my character who has entirely Pegasus traits.

Ramsus wrote:We're having this discussion because you feel that mechanics define flavor. But even if it does for you, that doesn't mean it does for everyone else. I've had no problems with my Earth Pony flavor on my character who has entirely Pegasus traits.

But you took those Pegasus traits (in other words - mechanics) because you wanted flavor.

This is, and always was, about mechanics defining flavor.

No, I wanted the mechanics. The character's flavor is still an Earth Pony. Yes, part of his flavor is flight but, his racial flavor is still Earth Pony despite having no mechanics to back that up at all.

If I may put forth an idea...

So I was thinking about earth ponies. They are supposed to have a connection to the earth, which has been interpreted by drawing on a few different things in the show they they (a) are uncannily good dealing with animals (Fluttershy was originally going to be an earth pony), (b) are the only ones capable of growing food (if Hearthswarming Eve is anything to go by), and (c) present interesting geological implications (Pinkie grew up on a rock farm?). Another possible ability I've inferred from all of this is, if they're good with plants, rocks and animals, then they must be good working with wood, metal, stone, leather, bone, silk, etc., and indeed, seem to be quite the handiponies. So maybe they have special crafting abilities that basically let them create enchanted items (also a good explanation for their machinery).

The problem is, this is all a little much to give an earth pony, and it also spreads their abilities out quite a bit. So I was thinking, why not a "choose one of...", so they can choose between earth, plant, animals, or crafting, picking the one that best suits their character? These can also be made utility talents, so that they can pick up more than one if they want, but their race doesn't require them to. (And also so that other races can pick them up, too, e.g. Fluttershy and animals, Rarity and her dresscrafting, etc.) Earth ponies are the most striking example I can think of something like this, but there are probably other races where this sort of thing could apply (dragons, maybe?).

The animal based traits have already been created, but we're lacking in plant and earth based traits. If someone else doesn't get to it first, I'll whip some up when I have time, but this is going to be a busy week for me.

The thing about Earth Ponies is that they are mostly defined by what traits they lack, not what they have, since what they are shown to have is all over the place.

Those would be good utilities though.

I'd just like to clarify that my stance about this system being default to open for people to mess around with is so strong partially because it's a lot easier for people who want boundaries like "all X race have these specific traits no questions" to house rule than the other way around. People tend to stick to defaults a lot and having it be default closed by those boundaries makes it harder on those who want to have that kind of freedom just because not everyone is going to examine the implications of choosing one way or another. Those who actually care about those boundaries still get them no matter what decisions are made officially and the same cannot be said the other way around, so I find it a bit mean spirited to take that freedom out of people's hands under those circumstances as it's just imposing your personal opinions of where boundaries should be on everyone without any need for that.