Re: Discussion on alterations to the new Conjured shield

Fury of the Tempest Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:17 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:And Tanks don't even need to be just one of those types, they mix them however they want or even try to think up a new way to play. But I'd say any build that can take a good deal of damage counts as a tank...

I disagree highly.

A tank is something that doesn't just take damage, but reduces the amount of damage that allies take, either by absorbing damage, weakening the enemy or hurting them if you don't attack them.

You 'high damage tank' is not a tank, as I believe your 'Last-Stand tank'. Its a Juggernaut. Someone that can dish out good damage, but also withstand damage as well. Either way, for those two. The shield isn't designed for them, that is what Grantie Axe is designed for. I believe Kindalus has already mentioned this as well.

Tanks reduce ally damage. Juggernauts simply reduce the damage they take so they can keep dishing out sustain damage.

Also, how does the current shield support ' High-Threat-Level' and 'Punishing' more than my shield? In fact, they both support 'Meatshield' and 'Last Man Standing', through mine supports Meatshield more and the modern one suppost 'Last-Man' more.

tygerburningbright Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:20 pm

You are entitled to your opinion but the move need to be able to work for whomever might take it and at least two of the types listed by Xel would be likely to take it in many cases.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:39 pm

tygerburningbright wrote:You are entitled to your opinion but the move need to be able to work for whomever might take it and at least two of the types listed by Xel would be likely to take it in many cases.

The two shields work for two types of tank. Meatshield and Last Stand. Neither of them punish the enemy for not attacking you, nor do they have enough damage to be the so called 'High-threat' tank. Its just that my shield is geared more towards the Meatshield, while the modern tank is probably more geared towards the 'Last Stand' tank.

This means that the argument that the current shield works for more types of tanks than my shield, is completely and irrefutably invalid

ZamuelNow Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:51 pm

I think the most important part of the discussion is that the different shields support different kinds of tanks. The question is if the system can support both. In theory it should be fine as long as one isn't just outright better in all situations or simply broken. Perhaps work out the kinks in the mechanics here and there.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:18 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:I think the most important part of the discussion is that the different shields support different kinds of tanks. The question is if the system can support both. In theory it should be fine as long as one isn't just outright better in all situations or simply broken. Perhaps work out the kinks in the mechanics here and there.

I guess so... it would be easier if there was only one shield through. Still, having two should make everyone happy.

As long as one isn't better than the other as you say... Through do what types of tanks do you think the shields support best?

Fury of the Tempest Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:35 am

Anymore opinions? Do the two shields support different tank-styles better? Should we have the two shields, even through they are very similar, or should we only have one? If one, which shield do you like more and why?

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:12 pm

Guys, for resistance tanks we can just made a resist-giving power that can increase resist if you already have it.

The main impass is
"Man! the ability to get a free defender sure is cool!"
"But... but then Lightning Cowl doesn't do anything..."

These things. These problems are the core issue above all. Everything else is still problematic, but these things seem to be the most unworkable. Both are so cool, it working with LC, and it being totes free. We could theoretically maybe make two... but that's so weird. Unless we can flavor them very differently somehow, and then make them even more different so they don't look like they're different versions of the same thing... then it's just too awkward. Maybe... maybe one of them could be a druid form, like a Bear or something... we've been trying to come to a compromise, the two versions inching toward each other, but maybe what we need to do is fling them apart? Perhaps we could keep the official version as is, then find a way to make Fury's version do what he wants it to do, but make it look more different from the SoV. We would have to make it something other than a shield in flavor, but in THIS system that's not a big deal, since you can just flavor it back into a shield when you take it. But what else could it be? Or is my idea dumb?

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:19 pm

Kindulas wrote:Guys, for resistance tanks we can just made a resist-giving power that can increase resist if you already have it.

The main impass is
"Man! the ability to get a free defender sure is cool!"
"But... but then Lightning Cowl doesn't do anything..."

These things. These problems are the core issue above all. Everything else is still problematic, but these things seem to be the most unworkable. Both are so cool, it working with LC, and it being totes free. We could theoretically maybe make two... but that's so weird. Unless we can flavor them very differently somehow, and then make them even more different so they don't look like they're different versions of the same thing... then it's just too awkward. Maybe... maybe one of them could be a druid form, like a Bear or something... we've been trying to come to a compromise, the two versions inching toward each other, but maybe what we need to do is fling them apart? Perhaps we could keep the official version as is, then find a way to make Fury's version do what he wants it to do, but make it look more different from the SoV. We would have to make it something other than a shield in flavor, but in THIS system that's not a big deal, since you can just flavor it back into a shield when you take it. But what else could it be? Or is my idea dumb?

Ultimate Sacrifice is a good step towards difference... both having Defender would be awkward but not implausible, giving how quintessential it is... but then there's Absorb. Absorb is an important part of both, and we have disagreements on how it should....
waaaaait...
MINE is a static cost that costs the shield
Fury had the idea of some kind of a -X... maybe if HIS targeted only allies with marks and could redirect an AoE from X allies, and mine stays as is. That... that feels quite different. They would both have defender for -2 and some kind of marking system, but that isn't so bad...

Fury of the Tempest Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:43 pm

Having two would feel weird... and yeah, you are right. The main problem is:

"Man! the ability to get a free defender sure is cool!"
"But... but then Lightning Cowl doesn't do anything..."

Which in the end, is greatly problematic.. I know personally, that I would prefer to be not so cool at first, then get cooler over time, but I can understand that people might disagree.

Still, I do have a concern with the free defender, which can be done an unlimited amount of times after that mark is placed. This isn't that problematic, as 4-6 seems to be the normal party size... but you won't always be fighting with you entire party, all the time, or it might be a smaller party. With only 1-2 allies, that unlimited free defender comes across as extremely unbalanced to me.

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:36 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Having two would feel weird... and yeah, you are right. The main problem is:

"Man! the ability to get a free defender sure is cool!"
"But... but then Lightning Cowl doesn't do anything..."

Which in the end, is greatly problematic.. I know personally, that I would prefer to be not so cool at first, then get cooler over time, but I can understand that people might disagree.

Still, I do have a concern with the free defender, which can be done an unlimited amount of times after that mark is placed. This isn't that problematic, as 4-6 seems to be the normal party size... but you won't always be fighting with you entire party, all the time, or it might be a smaller party. With only 1-2 allies, that unlimited free defender comes across as extremely unbalanced to me.

Yeah, again I DO think that not-sticking marks would be easier to balance, and then we have that weapon I proposed.

Fury of the Tempest Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:37 pm

Kindulas wrote:and then we have that weapon I proposed.

I'm afraid you lost me here.

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:47 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Kindulas wrote:and then we have that weapon I proposed.

I'm afraid you lost me here.

Kindulas wrote:I like the 0 cost too, but I DO understand the dissatisfaction with it not working with LC at all.
IF we do the 1 pip reduction and make the marks cheaper, we largely get the best of both, then we just need to... hey that's a thought... we could have the highest + ability be a +4 ability, accounted for the marks as 1 pip - a mark would probably be worth 1/2 a pip if we do Fury's way of having the marks be 1-time things, that way you would get 1 pip off at the cost of 1/2 a pip value and having to pick the ally ahead of time. A +4 ability with -1 pip for marks mean Lightning Cowl is useful, and even without lightning cowl you can get a LOT of pips with which to use reactions (Like Hellspike Armor, amiright Chad?)

I had made it so that the marks don't leave once you defend the ally, because I liked the idea that you could mark an ally and just keep blocking him, but frankly Fury's temp-marks are easier to balance, which is a huge plus. And hey, the "Mark an ally, keep blocking" could be a combat talent of it's own. Which, actually, is kind of Marty's Blessing. Maybe a Shield as a weapon that can mark an ally 1/Round to auto-block attacks for...

Not replacing the conjured weapon, of course, but how does this look:
Sentinel's Shield - 3000 Gold
Weapon
At the beginning of your turn, you may choose an ally. Until the start of your next turn, whenever that ally would be targeted by an attack, you may have the attack target you instead.

Fury of the Tempest Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:41 pm

Oh yeah, that.

Seems like a great idea to me, but might need to cost a bit more in my opinion. An extra 500-1000 gold aught to do it.

Also, what do you think of this for the revamped shield, taking into account opinions stated on the thread?

[-7] Sentinel's Shield - Minor Utility
You conjure a Sentinel Shield in your hands. You can dismiss the Sentinel Shield as a free action. While you are wielding a Sentinel Shield, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Trait - Protector’s Vow
Whenever you use a Standard talent, select one ally, they gain an Guardian Mark until the start of your next turn.

[+3] Bunker Down - Standard Utility
Gain Resist 2 until the end of your next turn, if you already have resist, increase the amount of resist you have by 2 instead. Select one ally, they gain a Guardian Mark.

[+1] Shield Smash - Standard Attack
Deal 1d8 damage to target enemy, they receive a -3 penalty to damage until the end of your next turn.

[-2] Guardian's Duty - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.
Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead. If the ally targeted by the attack has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to reduce the PiP cost of this move by 1.

[-X] Under the Ageis - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - Multiple allies would be hit by the same attack
Effect: Pay PiPs equal to the amount of allies hit plus 1. The attack hits you instead. If a allies that would of be hit by the attack have a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to reduce the PiP cost of this move by 1

[0] Ultimate Sacrifice - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - An ally is knocked unconscious
Effect: That ally gains health equal to your current health and PiPs equal to your current PiP total. Your health is then decreased -12 HP

Under the Ageis now gets costly when protecting big parties, as it should. However, it can also reduce that cost if your protecting people with a Guardian Mark, with it being possible to defend 2 ponies, for 1 PiP, which feels awesome. Using the Lighting Cowl however, it'll feel even more awesome as you'll protect them for free

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:45 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Oh yeah, that.

Seems like a great idea to me, but might need to cost a bit more in my opinion. An extra 500-1000 gold aught to do it.

Also, what do you think of this for the revamped shield, taking into account opinions stated on the thread?

[-7] Sentinel's Shield - Minor Utility
You conjure a Sentinel Shield in your hands. You can dismiss the Sentinel Shield as a free action. While you are wielding a Sentinel Shield, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Trait - Protector’s Vow
Whenever you use a Standard talent, select one ally, they gain an Guardian Mark until the start of your next turn.

[+3] Bunker Down - Standard Utility
Gain Resist 2 until the end of your next turn, if you already have resist, increase the amount of resist you have by 2 instead. Select one ally, they gain a Guardian Mark.

[+1] Shield Smash - Standard Attack
Deal 1d8 damage to target enemy, they receive a -3 penalty to damage until the end of your next turn.

[-2] Guardian's Duty - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.
Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead. If target ally has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to reduce the PiP cost of this move by 1.

[-X] Under the Ageis - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - Multiple allies would be hit by the same attack
Effect: Pay PiPs equal to the amount of allies hit. The attack hits you instead. If a target ally has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to reduce the PiP cost of this move by 1

[0] Ultimate Sacrifice - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - An ally is knocked unconscious
Effect: That ally gains health equal to your current health and PiPs equal to your current PiP total. Your health is then decreased to the amount required to knock you out.

Under the Ageis now gets costly when protecting big parties, as it should. However, it can also reduce that cost if your protecting people with a Guardian Mark, with it actually being possible to completely negate the cost of the AoE shield. Which not only will feel awesome, but will become easier to do when you get the Lightning Cowl.

I'm not sure the Ageis is balanced that way, I had meant what if you could only protect marked allies like the old version... that I have no idea. And "Knock you out" is not rules-talk, just say "-12 hp." Also saying "If target ally has a Gmark" means that it doesn't have to be the ally they're protecting

Fury of the Tempest Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:48 pm

Kindulas wrote:I'm not sure the Ageis is balanced that way, I had meant what if you could only protect marked allies like the old version... that I have no idea. And "Knock you out" is not rules-talk, just say "-12 hp." Also saying "If target ally has a Gmark" means that it doesn't have to be the ally they're protecting

Well... for defending two ponies from 1 attack, it is a little unbalanced... maybe it should be the pip cost +1? I don't like if being protecting JUST marked allies through...

I'll change it to -12 HP as you suggest... and what should I change it to so it in the ally your protecting?

Does the edits I've made look good to you?

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:07 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Kindulas wrote:I'm not sure the Ageis is balanced that way, I had meant what if you could only protect marked allies like the old version... that I have no idea. And "Knock you out" is not rules-talk, just say "-12 hp." Also saying "If target ally has a Gmark" means that it doesn't have to be the ally they're protecting

Well... for defending two ponies from 1 attack, it is a little unbalanced... maybe it should be the pip cost +1? I don't like if being protecting JUST marked allies through...

I'll change it to -12 HP as you suggest... and what should I change it to so it in the ally your protecting?

Does the edits I've made look good to you?

"If the ally targeted by the triggering attack has a Gmark"
It's hard to know what to do about absorb, it was SO easy to write it off as fair by not being repeatable...

We're definitely getting closer, I haven't carefully checked the math, mind you, since right now we're going for most pleasing ideas. Still, it all feels like a compromise, there isnt' a way that no one loses something by changing it. IT would be nice if there was a way to make two very different versions so we could have our cake and eat it too.

Still, what if one of the offensive moves was more of a taunt like Demand Duel? Then we could have the difference of half damage vs. resist in the defensive + move, perhaps your marks go back to not being pip reduction... *sigh* but they're still defender marks, that's still too similar of a trick. Hey wait, wait wait wait, what if your version marked enemies like classic defender traits, and you got some kind of bonus from blocking their attacks? It would have to be something that was fair in a solo fight, but that would be another manner of differentiation... would it make more or less sense, then, for the version with enemy-marking to have a Demand Duel style attack?
>.>
<.<
Or are we all just plain opposed to trying?

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:11 pm

hm... if they do have opposite marking targets, they might feel more like parallel twins, something that feels like they belong in being similar instead of tweaked versions of the same thing...

Fury of the Tempest Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:13 pm

So... one is a shield for a defender, while the other is like... a samurai's sword?

If that's the split we are doing... you make the samurai sword, while my shield goes through. This 'mark the enemy, demand duel' type style... this 'Punishing tank' item is your idea, not mine, so I think its best for you to make it. However, I will try to make it myself if you wish me to.

**Kindulas** Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:51 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:So... one is a shield for a defender, while the other is like... a samurai's sword?

If that's the split we are doing... you make the samurai sword, while my shield goes through. This 'mark the enemy, demand duel' type style... this 'Punishing tank' item is your idea, not mine, so I think its best for you to make it. However, I will try to make it myself if you wish me to.

I was thinking it would still take attacks much like it does now, just that it gets bonuses for blocking the marked enemies. Think more "spiked shield" than a sword. See, my idea is to make a version that works for you to add in, while making as few changes to the current official one as possible, because it seems overall people prefer it as is, but I don't want to leave you without a version you like - it seems like the best way to please the most people. So I guess, my question is, can you see something a lot like your old version but with Ultimate Sacrifice, Shield Bash changed to a Demand Duel style thing (it was already quite offensive in your old version) and the marks applied to the enemies whose attack you wish to take instead, maybe instead of resist 2 you deal a bit of damage to the creature you marked when you take its attack? Could still stand to be a defensive bonus, of course. If that doesn't work at all for you, then there we go, but if something like that might work,

**Kindulas** Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:25 am

No
Wait.
Halt everything.
The trait doesn't reduce the pip cost at all for blocking marked allies.
It gives you 2 pips after it resolves
This means
A) The talent is basically free
B) Lightning Cowl can be used to *gain* pips
C) The above is (probably...hopefully...) made fair by the fact that it isn't *completely* free, and you have to keep the 2 pips up to block, but you can keep blocking.
It isn't perfect because of C, but it might work pretty well, and it becomes a whole new thing to do with LC.

Now, if that sounds good, we DO have the absorb problem. I suppose it might be fair without vanishing if it cost 4/5, but gained you a pip for each marked ally blocked.

Maybe it isn't a complete impass after all... I still like the idea of a punish defender weapon though.

Xel Unknown Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:28 am

I also enjoy this idea of a Punishing Defender Weapon...

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:54 am

Kindulas wrote:
The above is (probably...hopefully...) made fair by...

Just a quick note, this is a sentence that I find it helpful to avoid when developing.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:09 am

Kindulas wrote:No
Wait.
Halt everything.
The trait doesn't reduce the pip cost at all for blocking marked allies.
It gives you 2 pips after it resolves
This means
A) The talent is basically free
B) Lightning Cowl can be used to *gain* pips
C) The above is (probably...hopefully...) made fair by the fact that it isn't *completely* free, and you have to keep the 2 pips up to block, but you can keep blocking.

... Gaining PiPs because you defended an ally? Sure, you have to pay 2 PiP's at first, and need a 5000 gold item, but actually GAINING PIPS?! That's just... wrong, on so, so many levels. Sure, the fact that you have to pay PiP's first might give it some balance, but it just feels horrendously overpowered.

The standard Defender is a [-2], with Lightning Cowl making it a [-1], rule of thumb for a Conjured Weapon, is that if it is Standard Actions only, the moves are giving +2 PiP's to their normal worth. However, having a minor or interrupt on the same level, as well as the normal +PiPs for the Standard Action, means your a getting many more PiPs worth, then you should.

Defender +2 = 0. Defender with Lightning Cowl +2 = +1. Actually, this brings up the fact that even the original shield allows you to use Defender for 0 cost, an unlimited amount of times (okay, only on specific allies, but they could have a way to draw the enemy to only attack them) means that the PiP to power ratio, is much, much higher than it should be.

At most, an interrupt on a Conjured Weapon should be worth +1 its normal counterpart, if not costing the exact same as its counterpart. This is what my shield does

I admit, you probably already thought about this, and tried to balance it appropriately... but because of what I've just stated, its going to feel unbalanced, especially when compared to how Hurricane Blades has been changed

Of course, not that people actually agree with that notion and think that unlimited free defenders is absolutely FINE.

Kindulas wrote:I still like the idea of a punish defender weapon though.

Xel Unknown wrote:I also enjoy this idea of a Punishing Defender Weapon...

So do I, but I think it would be best to go the whole way, and drop the absorb, Ultimate Sacrifice and probably the defender as well for a more 'Demand Duel' style weapon, instead of having two very similar shields.

sunbeam Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:14 am

How about, instead of each guardian mark granting you two pips when lifted, it just refunds you the cost of the interrupt? So if you drop the cost from [-2] to [-1] with Lightning Cowl, it's easier to use the interrupt, but the Guardian mark is what lets you keep using it. I think that would make the move look like this:

[-2] Guardian's Duty - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.
Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead. If target ally has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to gain pips equal to the amount you spent to use this move.

...There's probably a smoother way to word that.

Anyways, Lightning cowl increases its availability, while cutting down on the cost of AoE shield. And the Guardian marks let you the interrupt that much more often.

How does that sound?

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:27 am

That would work for the Shield of Valour I guess. For the most current version of the Sentinel Shield, I prefer it just being a -1, makes it easier to balance and works well with the AoE shield as well.

Still curious to know what other people think of Ultimate Sacrifice, no one seems to have brought it up but Kind.

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