The Hooved Races

Right. Now I'm having a game mechanics discussion with someone who is going to accuse me of bias just to try to win an argument. Sorta makes me wonder why I'm bothering at all.

Edit: To address your nasty implication there, I will clarify. Yes, I brought up the issue because I have a Changeling character. However, that doesn't mean I'm doing so because I want my character to be better. I just happened to notice the problem because I used it. I haven't done test builds of everything because...well, I'm not obligated to am I? When I saw an issue I brought it up. I haven't even looked at all the new race ideas yet (mostly because as far as I know they're still being more or less hammered out). If I look at them later and see something unfair there I would bring it up when I saw it. That's really all there is to that and I resent your accusation. (An implication would have been insulting enough but, you skipped right past that and outright accused me of being biased so...yeah, that was pretty dang rude. I'm amazed that as a GM, a player, and a game designer you wouldn't fully understand just how rude that was. And if you did then I'm shocked you'd still do it anyway.)

I misspoke about it being an opposed check and I never said I had any problem with the DC. I think the shapechanging mechanic is perfectly fine. I just think the one other racial trait they get is worse than not having it at all.

My point about the build I showed was not "Oh no, they can take a lot of stuff to do a thing I can do at base" it was that it is possible for someone to do the one thing Changelings do better than changelings whereas no matter what, changes or no, Changelings will never have the ability to fly better than Pegasi or do magic better than Unicorns. They won't even come close and there's no need to punish them by taking away more utility talents just for wanting to do those things at all.

Also the other flying races were brought up. Let's examine that a bit. Is there some reason it would take a Changeling more effort to learn how to fly than a griffin that warrants his attempts at being as good at that meaning that he's not good at anything else while the griffin can do that and other things well? I don't see a case being made for Changelings don't have wings at birth so that rules out a "they're new to it" excuse. Is it because they have insect wings instead of bird wings? Doesn't really make much sense there either. So basically the only options left are Changelings have trouble learning to fly because they possibly might not always be in winged form (no way to actually say for sure that any specific changeling hasn't almost always been in winged form though) or that having the (stunted) ability to use magic cripples their ability to learn to fly. Neither of these really make any sense as then it would be arguable that Changelings have trouble walking, talking, breathing, etc. in any form that isn't their base changeling form. It's harder to make a similar argument about magic just because nobody else does magic aside from unicorns but, it would be just as arbitrary.

Oh and no comment about your willingness to give up a utility you don't have to just because you said that changelings should have to do that.

Edit: Ninja'd....I think? You seem to have cut off there. I don't really get the point of that option. It's just sorta unfair to any changelings who didn't want out of race utilities and it allows faster mix-matching than my suggestion by quite a lot. It seems like a worse choice from all ways of looking at it.

Ramsus wrote:Right. Now I'm having a game mechanics discussion with someone who is going to accuse me of bias just to try to win an argument. Sorta makes me wonder why I'm bothering at all.

I'm not accusing you of bias, I'm just suggesting that the issue isn't that the Changeling is weak at the moment; but rather that you don't find that that trait personally appealing.

Ramsus wrote: I think the shapechanging mechanic is perfectly fine. I just think the one other racial trait they get is worse than not having it at all.

And... It seems that you don't find it personally appealing - to the point you'd rather have no option than have the option. So, um... Yeah.

Ramsus wrote:My point about the build I showed was not "Oh no, they can take a lot of stuff to do a thing I can do at base" it was that it is possible for someone to do the one thing Changelings do better than changelings whereas no matter what, changes or no, Changelings will never have the ability to fly better than Pegasi or do magic better than Unicorns. They won't even come close and there's no need to punish them by taking away more utility talents just for wanting to do those things at all.

If the changelings take similar skills and utility talents, they'd drastically exceed an earth pony. Changelings win at disguise. Flying races win at flight, unicorns at magic... Changelings win at disguise because they get all that plus their advantageous racial trait. Much better for the task than Earth Pony racials.

Ramsus wrote:Also the other flying races were brought up. Let's examine that a bit. Is there some reason it would take a Changeling more effort to learn how to fly than a griffin that warrants his attempts at being as good at that meaning that he's not good at anything else while the griffin can do that and other things well? I don't see a case being made for Changelings don't have wings at birth so that rules out a "they're new to it" excuse. Is it because they have insect wings instead of bird wings? Doesn't really make much sense there either. So basically the only options left are Changelings have trouble learning to fly because they possibly might not always be in winged form (no way to actually say for sure that any specific changeling hasn't almost always been in winged form though) or that having the (stunted) ability to use magic cripples their ability to learn to fly. Neither of these really make any sense as then it would be arguable that Changelings have trouble walking, talking, breathing, etc. in any form that isn't their base changeling form. It's harder to make a similar argument about magic just because nobody else does magic aside from unicorns but, it would be just as arbitrary.

We can use similar arguments to move just about every single Earth Pony talent into the Everypony category. Furthermore, we can argue that Unicorns should be strictly better that Earth Ponies at everything. After all, they're just earth ponies with horns. But that would not make for good gameplay.

You have to be consistent about that argument. If you want to apply it to changelings, you have to apply it to Earth Ponies too.

Ramsus wrote:Oh and no comment about your willingness to give up a utility you don't have to just because you said that changelings should have to do that.

Um... Okay? And no comment about players having to spend a utility talent and an increased crit fail chance in order to take Derp too? Extra options come with drawbacks. That's... Kind of how game balance works.

Ramsus, not everything in the world is designed for all players. It's perfectly possible that some players might not mind giving up a utility talent in order to have increased flexibility. In multiclass systems, giving up a feat slot to take a multiclass option in order to qualify for a fighter feat with your next slot... That's kind of embraced.

However, I'm perfectly willing to make more than one kind of changeling option - so some changelings can specialize in one thing (at creation, choose a race and you can take talents as if you were that race) or even handicap themselves universally for unlimited options (say, start with 4 utility talents instead of 5 and no restrictions whatsoever on racial prerequisites).

Multiple changeling templates I'm fine with, since they're shifty folk.

Edit to your ninja - It's not faster mix-matching I'm worried about. It's game balance. The changelings are already a powerful and versatile race. Races need to be on par with one another. I hate that some races get utility talents others can't take advantage of. I'd love to use the changeling as my excuse for infinite freedom for a player to pick any racial talent. But that would make them better than other racial options.

Um...what, no? Changelings can't use a build like that because their disguise isn't a skill check. It's a DC. They could pointlessly ignore their one racial ability to focus on skill based disguises but....that would actually still leave them worse at it than an Earth Pony. Or a Pegasi with Awesomeness even.

Edit: Again with the implications. What do you mean "changeling of my dreams"? For the record the only out of race Utility I even have figured I want for Outcast is Witchcraft. After that it's probably back to changeling stuff. And I haven't examined it past that.

I understand fully that not everything works for everyone. I just presented an option I felt would work better for most people and would work better than one way or the other to people who would feel drastically either way about the versatility they wanted their changeling to have.

For the record I think it's unfair to ask anyone to sacrifice Utility powers to get more Utility powers. This is one of those things I've always felt was stupid about multiclassing in many systems. If you take a feat/utility whatever, you should get something. Not the future promise of something someone else can already do without that sacrifice. The current way it works is even worse because you make that sacrifice not just once but every single time.

As for alternate templates. *shrug* I presented something I felt would alleviate the need for that kind of complication.

Ramsus wrote:Um...what, no? Changelings can't use a build like that because their disguise isn't a skill check. It's a DC. They could pointlessly ignore their one racial ability to focus on skill based disguises but....that would actually still leave them worse at it than an Earth Pony. Or a Pegasi with Awesomeness even.

No, because a disguise like that would give them a massive circumstantial bonus. Just like having the real uniform of the captain of the guards if you're trying to impersonate him. And I've already said, if your worry is the DC - you can solve that a lot easier by boosting the DC.

But...that wouldn't make any sense in character to do. It would be just goofy to have a shapeshifting sewing disguises. And yeah, we can and do (and possibly should have more?) have things to boost that DC and that's good. Precisely because it avoids that kind of sillyness.

Edit: My worry is also game balance. Are you not factoring in the Changelings don't get cutie marks? In fact...how does punishing Changelings for taking certain options over others balance anything? It's not like magic or flying talents are better than others.

Ramsus wrote:But...that wouldn't make any sense in character to do. It would be just goofy to have a shapeshifting sewing disguises. And yeah, we can and do (and possibly should have more?) have things to boost that DC and that's good. Precisely because it avoids that kind of sillyness.

Edit: My worry is also game balance. Are you not factoring in the Changelings don't get cutie marks? In fact...how does punishing Changelings for taking certain options over others balance anything? It's not like magic or flying talents are better than others.

1) It actually does seem that a changeling can mimic external objects on its targets. Applejack's tail in the changelings was still tied fine. Changelings came with fake eyelashes for rarity.

2) You may have missed the point. Having an original article of clothing from the person you're trying to impersonate gives you a bonus. If you're trying to impersonate the queen, you get a bonus if you have her crown to help sell the part. You also get a bonus for looking magically identical to her. A big one. It's called a circumstantial bonus, a bonus that you get based on special circumstances. It has nothing necessarily to do with shape-shifting sewing disguises.

3) In case I missed your point due to you writing a typo, training in impersonation does not mean you have to train in disguise-making. Acting like your quarry is essential. Chyrsallis had a perfect appearance for Cadence. She just blew it in front of Twilight by acting wrong. That's part of impersonation too.

4) Yes, I factored that in within my above calculation. The extra trait for changelings opens new options that they wouldn't otherwise have (always a huge problem in game balance). Making sure those options cost a lot means that they won't break the game. It's there for flavor more than mechanical advantage, just like Weathercrafting. If players are fine with the drawback, just as many are fine with Derp's massive drawbacks, that's fine. If they're not, they don't have to take it.

Again, I'm fine with making additional changeling templates for various changeling playstyles.

That seems sort of like the brute for method to ensure balance....

That is, seeing the potential for a problem without seeing any examples of it and crippling the thing that would allow that without actually taking the time to examine if it was capable of causing problems.

But, whatever. Can I then submit my suggestion as an alternate template? It just feels silly to have things work out that way instead of just trying to mess with the "official" version till that one is the best one. Anyway, I guess when I have your reply to that I'll go ask MW if he minds me switching Outcast to that "template" (it also feels weird calling a swap in one racial ability an entire template change) so we can test it out (not that I'm really likely to end up testing it to the potential breaking point since I don't particularly want Outcast to be a flying magical bank robber....).

I have a question about changelings, when a changeling is in its base form, can it use the basic flight and ponykinesis? or are those only available in their disguises?

Oh also, related to the topic at hand somewhat. In my changeling I picked everypony talents because, copycat did seem like a poor trade-off with what I knew at the time. But reading all this has made me wonder, how many utility talents does a PC get to choose from at level up?

If its two or more, then copycat seems more like an investment than a poor trade-off since, if you're patient and manage to survive long enough, by level 3 or 4 you just might have that magical flying bank robber.

You won't ever be as strong in one field as a pegasus, or unicorn, or earth pony. But if leveling up does allow you to make use of copycat, then you really do begin to see how versatile a changeling can be.

To put it in a weird artsy metaphor, because I'm weird like that. When you first make a changeling, you can see a little puddle of versatility and it seems pretty insignificant, only because you can't see through the fog if it really is just a puddle or a pretty decently-sized lake.

That's how it seems to me anyway, granted I admit I know pretty much nothing at all about what I'm talking about.

I'm pretty sure we only get one Utility talent on level up and I'm not sure we even get one every level.

Dr Blight wrote:I have a question about changelings, when a changeling is in its base form, can it use the basic flight and ponykinesis? or are those only available in their disguises?

Changelings are just so tricksy - but I guess that figures, coming from a race of shape-shifters.

Note that I'm not an expert - but the way the Disguise ability reads, I'd say Changelings in their base forms could definitely fly - and though it would be up to debate whether their horns counted as "Unicorn Horns," I'd say, yes.

So in my opinion, they could use both flight and ponykinesis in their base forms.

They could also use both in Alicorn form, which is something to think about (:

Yeah because there are so many alicorns to disguise yourself as and nobody will be looking out for that at all... =P

It's the stoneforge mystic school of design Ramsus. The issue with an ability like the changeling's is that it means an additional design trap forever after. From here on out, we have to weigh all racial utility talents not just on how well they combine with that race's and Everypony - but how well they combine with all other races too. It makes it easier to mess up and restricts our design options.

However, I think that the price of a utility talent is pretty big - and the race-specific talents aren't turning out as overwhelming as we thought they might be in the initial design. We keep finding excuses to put lots of great talent combos into everypony already. So this might be fine for the changelings.

1) You do NOT get the copycat ability

2) This is a utility talent changelings can take.

Dilettante
You can take utility talents from any racial category.

That way it lets people still enjoy making cool combinations between multiple races (like your mare do wells) but the price is significant enough to likely counterbalance any cool combination they come up with. Since I want to open those options anyway, this should work fine.


Optional: This might be another utility talent.

Favorite Form
This talent does not cost a utility talent slot. Choose a non-changeling race. You may take utility talents usually specific to that race. However, you can choose only one race as your Favorite Form. Changelings with the Favorite Form utility talent cannot also have the Dilettante talent.


Something like that. Not exactly of course, as that's a little clunky in the phrasing. But it would open lots of options for the changeling players.

I like this version better than Copycat personally. Dilettante would give the same overall limitation copycat did at first level, while opening the ability up more for future choices. And Dilettante sounds cooler to say anyway!

I'm interested in patching Hippogriffs. The Thunderbird talent isn't as in line with the mythology as I'd like, so it seems odd to give it to all Hippogriffs. How about making Thunderbird a utility talent and giving them this instead as a racial feature?

Fast As Lightning - Magic
Legends say that Hippogriffs can fly at the speed of lightning. This might be a slight exaggeration, but it’s true that Hippogriffs can reach blisteringly fast speeds for very short amounts of time. By spending a Magic Point, a Hippogriff can fly at a rate of a 100 miles-per-second for the next minute. However, for each second this speed is sustained; the Hippogriff and any passenger it might be carrying takes 1d20 damage.

(cross-posted from the Hippogriff thread because I want to get additional feedback from the insightful folks working here)

Wow. Would anything even survive for a solid minute under those conditions?

Dr Blight wrote:Wow. Would anything even survive for a solid minute under those conditions?

Very doubtful. Even at minimum damage on the d20, that's 60 damage. There might be utility talents or items that help with that though. I wanted to make the power feel flavorful and exciting to use... And the drawback kind of needs to be significant when you consider that the parallel for Pegasai is the flavorful-but-limited Weathercrafting.

I considered making the duration for this just a single second, but that seemed weird... So I added the damage as a limiting factor.

Like? Dislike?

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I'm interested in patching Hippogriffs. The Thunderbird talent isn't as in line with the mythology as I'd like, so it seems odd to give it to all Hippogriffs. How about making Thunderbird a utility talent and giving them this instead as a racial feature?

Fast As Lightning - Magic
Legends say that Hippogriffs can fly at the speed of lightning. This might be a slight exaggeration, but it’s true that Hippogriffs can reach blisteringly fast speeds for very short amounts of time. By spending a Magic Point, a Hippogriff can fly at a rate of a 100 miles-per-second for the next minute. However, for each second this speed is sustained; the Hippogriff and any passenger it might be carrying takes 1d20 damage.

(cross-posted from the Hippogriff thread because I want to get additional feedback from the insightful folks working here)

Wow, that's a very random amount of damage. I wonder what the downside of falling unconscious during 100Miles/second would be... Also I think that is WAYYYY TOO FAST. Poor Pony Handler who has to deal with a player that is now two days travel away from just one second of flight...
Do you realize that this speed is 1/2000 the speed of light? And for an easier reference it's about 500 times the speed of sound... Yup way too fast

I think it's pretty good! Very useful for covering distances between say a town and dungeon quickly. How many passengers can a hippogriff take though? I can't really imagine one hippogriff player carrying four or five ponies around.

Carrying passengers applies penalties to your flight checks at the DM's discretion - but yes usually one passenger is all you can take. Glad to hear you like it Dr. Blight.

SilentBelle wrote:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I'm interested in patching Hippogriffs. The Thunderbird talent isn't as in line with the mythology as I'd like, so it seems odd to give it to all Hippogriffs. How about making Thunderbird a utility talent and giving them this instead as a racial feature?

Fast As Lightning - Magic
Legends say that Hippogriffs can fly at the speed of lightning. This might be a slight exaggeration, but it’s true that Hippogriffs can reach blisteringly fast speeds for very short amounts of time. By spending a Magic Point, a Hippogriff can fly at a rate of a 100 miles-per-second for the next minute. However, for each second this speed is sustained; the Hippogriff and any passenger it might be carrying takes 1d20 damage.

(cross-posted from the Hippogriff thread because I want to get additional feedback from the insightful folks working here)

Wow, that's a very random amount of damage. I wonder what the downside of falling unconscious during 100Miles/second would be... Also I think that is WAYYYY TOO FAST. Poor Pony Handler who has to deal with a player that is now two days travel away from just one second of flight...
Do you realize that this speed is 1/2000 the speed of light? And for an easier reference it's about 500 times the speed of sound... Yup way too fast

1) Yup, it's much slower than the speed of light and also much slower than the speed of lightning. Lightning often travels about 60,000 miles a second.

2) Is it way too fast? Think of it like a dangerous teleport option, which do exist in RPG systems. That's how I've envisioned it, and those don't usually present problems for DMs when they come with substantial drawbacks. It also has options for scouting out enemy formations and such from the air, but for a Magic Point and the risk of falling out of the sky - it sounds pretty fair. Think of it as a long-range teleport. Naturally, trying to navigate in any space besides the open sky will almost certainly end in disaster. I can include a note about that. So no racing to the end of a dungeon. Also, I'm planning to include a clause of you always taking a minimum of 1d20 damage when you kick it up, even if you only fly for half a second.

3) Yep, very random amount of damage. The added risk will make using the power feel more exciting, special and also prevent players from using it too often. Less trouble for DMs.

How's this for the Zebra?

Zebra [Passionately Created by XandZero2]
Tribal Tattoos
Zebras have a Cutie Mark, and do not gain a 3rd trained skill like other non-pony races.

Bridle Gossip - 3/Day
Zebras often have a unique way of talking. Upon character creation, a Zebra chooses to specialize in rhyme, haiku, rap, limerick or another equally kooky form of communication (at the DM’s discretion). Whenever out of combat, a Zebra may use this form of communication 'in character' to create an original, relevant, coherent phrase. If the Zebra does, he can roll twice on the next skill check he makes and take either result.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Carrying passengers applies penalties to your flight checks at the DM's discretion - but yes usually one passenger is all you can take. Glad to hear you like it Dr. Blight.

SilentBelle wrote:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I'm interested in patching Hippogriffs. The Thunderbird talent isn't as in line with the mythology as I'd like, so it seems odd to give it to all Hippogriffs. How about making Thunderbird a utility talent and giving them this instead as a racial feature?

Fast As Lightning - Magic
Legends say that Hippogriffs can fly at the speed of lightning. This might be a slight exaggeration, but it’s true that Hippogriffs can reach blisteringly fast speeds for very short amounts of time. By spending a Magic Point, a Hippogriff can fly at a rate of a 100 miles-per-second for the next minute. However, for each second this speed is sustained; the Hippogriff and any passenger it might be carrying takes 1d20 damage.

(cross-posted from the Hippogriff thread because I want to get additional feedback from the insightful folks working here)

Wow, that's a very random amount of damage. I wonder what the downside of falling unconscious during 100Miles/second would be... Also I think that is WAYYYY TOO FAST. Poor Pony Handler who has to deal with a player that is now two days travel away from just one second of flight...
Do you realize that this speed is 1/2000 the speed of light? And for an easier reference it's about 500 times the speed of sound... Yup way too fast

1) Yup, it's much slower than the speed of light and also much slower than the speed of lightning. Lightning often travels about 60,000 miles a second.

2) Is it way too fast? Think of it like a dangerous teleport option, which do exist in RPG systems. That's how I've envisioned it, and those don't usually present problems for DMs when they come with substantial drawbacks. It also has options for scouting out enemy formations and such from the air, but for a Magic Point and the risk of falling out of the sky - it sounds pretty fair. Think of it as a long-range teleport. Naturally, trying to navigate in any space besides the open sky will almost certainly end in disaster. I can include a note about that. So no racing to the end of a dungeon. Also, I'm planning to include a clause of you always taking a minimum of 1d20 damage when you kick it up, even if you only fly for half a second.

3) Yep, very random amount of damage. The added risk will make using the power feel more exciting, special and also prevent players from using it too often. Less trouble for DMs.

I guess I'm just too physics-oriented right now, because to move that fast and then stop is pretty much impossible. (Oh, wait this is a fantasy game I shouldn't think about air resistance.) Maybe if it gets flavoured like: The Hippogriff and it's passengers take on the form of a lightning bolt as they travel blisteringly quick across the sky.
Then I cold see it making more sense.

In terms of mechanics, I'd still cringe to play as the Pony Handler for a group that has this ability in it. Because I know the party would be split in one second flat. But is there some sort of flight check, or perception you would use to try and navigate in that split second of travel? Or is it a complete gamble on the Hippogriff's side?

Also, Poor Rainbow Dash, she's not even close to that level of speed.

@Dr. Blight:

I have a question about changelings, when a changeling is in its base form, can it use the basic flight and ponykinesis? or are those only available in their disguises?

I actually asked about this a while ago, and the answer I got was that yes, it can use both, since it's a form that has wings and a horn. Of course, the drawback is that you're publicly going around as a Changeling.

@Dan: I thought you were trying to avoid abilities that did damage outside of battle. Why the change of heart?

SilentBelle wrote:
I guess I'm just too physics-oriented right now, because to move that fast and then stop is pretty much impossible. (Oh, wait this is a fantasy game I shouldn't think about air resistance.) Maybe if it gets flavoured like: The Hippogriff and it's passengers take on the form of a lightning bolt as they travel blisteringly quick across the sky.
Then I cold see it making more sense.

In terms of mechanics, I'd still cringe to play as the Pony Handler for a group that has this ability in it. Because I know the party would be split in one second flat. But is there some sort of flight check, or perception you would use to try and navigate in that split second of travel? Or is it a complete gamble on the Hippogriff's side?

Also, Poor Rainbow Dash, she's not even close to that level of speed.

When you think about, the ability doesn't make it any easier for the party to split up - the party can always split up. And once a player is out of convenient rescue distance, it really doesn't matter if they're 1 mile away or 100. The ability is designed to feel super-cool, but is it really any harder to DM for than a long-range teleport spell?

As for flight checks, I'll clarify that. If a hippogriff wants to fly with any accuracy, they'll need to make checks. However, for crossing long distances the gamble is in the damage rather than the chance of getting lost.

Videocrazy wrote:I thought you were trying to avoid abilities that did damage outside of battle. Why the change of heart?

Mainly because in this case the flavor and rarity-of-use (magic point+drawback) outweighed the drawbacks of having the utility talent deal damage. The use is also very segmented, meant to be used in situations where it's unlikely you'll get into combat or as an attempt to escape from combat... Meaning the talent is unlikely to clash with an existing battle.

Well, there's been a ton of work done and here are the current results! Check it out folks.

Check it out

Hmmm. Well those are certainly better. (I still like my alternate template better but, how often do people not like their version better?)

I like the DC boost to the non-impersonation form. That makes sense. It would be pretty hard to see through a disguise of nobody. (I like that it's still possible though. It's sort of funny.)

Also, Favorite Form...Alicorn! (Actually that sounds like a really terrible plan if your GM actually enforced you being in that form a lot.)