The Hooved Races

Zarhon wrote:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Also want to see Minotaurs developed further.

Mind giving some feedback on their current stuff?

Sure, will do.

First, they're currently suffering from feature creep right now. You can give a race lots of racial traits, like the great Griffon design, but they have to be extremely simple and thematic if you do.

Second, they don't have many really big draws to them yet. The Changeling and Griffon races have talents that really make players go, "awesome!" They also feel very distinct from other races. The Minotaur should feel very flavorful, very awesome and a very distinct option from other races.

Third, they're currently pushing players to one particular build. Minotaurs' biggest "wow" feature right now is the fact that they can power up Athletics and Horse-Sense to boost Persuasion high. This pushes the players in one particular direction, which we're trying to avoid. We're trying to make sure that players can use any race to be equally good at just about any related build. It's fine to give some freebies, like the Griffon's persuasion-check roar, but those can be equally used by any build. If a race gives incentive to build a particular way, especially with stat distribution, it limits the cool roleplaying concepts you can use that are also equally powerful... Potentially forcing players to choose between their cool roleplaying concept and a powerful character. I really want to avoid that. I dream of a world where the half-orc genius artificer is just as possible as the gnome artificer and players can enjoy their halfling barbarians without feeling the sting of not being as competent in combat as they know they could otherwise.

Those three points are the major ones right now.

Alrighty. Have a revision!

Minotaur

Torso Toss - 3 / Day
Toss range: 50 yrds
Max weight: 1000 lbs
Using their RIPPLING BICEPS and tiny hands, miontaurs can lift and throw an object or creature of smaller size than you, within the allowed weight limit. Creatures thrown in this manner land unharmed, but can be harmed or affected by wherever they are thrown into. Throwing creatures somewhere dangerous (like off a cliff, or into a cactus) allows the creature to roll an appropriate check to prevent it. Creatures you cannot throw include: Other minotaurs, male buffalo, cows/bulls, griffons.

Tread lightly
Due to unfair stereotyping, as well as one too many repair bill caused by their massive strength, minotaurs have trained themselves to be very careful around fragile property. You cannot accidentally cause the destruction or damage of any fragile items, such as china vases, glass windows, wooden doors, or stone walls, and gain a +10 skill check for holding or otherwise handling any delicate, expensive, fragile, volatile or dangerous equipment or objects.

Demolition Derpy - 2/day
You damage, destroy or otherwise demolish objects with ease. Using your bare hands and horns, you can destroy, break or demolish things made of the following materials:
No DC required + no daily limit - Glass, Wood planks, rock, dirt, clay
DC 10 - Thick wood (Like tree trunks), stone, crystal
DC 20 - Steel & metals, force-fields
DC 30 - Diamonds, gems
DC 40 - Dragon-scale, magical metals
DC 50 - Fourth walls
A successfuly check results in damage or destruction of the item, at the players specification. You can use tools to assist you, lowering the DC at the DMs discretion.

Humanoid
You have hands and walk on your hind hooves, allowing you to use two objects simultaneously. At the DMs discretion, you can combine two separate skill checks into a single one, causing a single roll to affect both checks. You can also hold up to three objects at once (one for each hand, one in mouth), up to a max weight of 1000lbs total.

YEAH!
Whenever an ally or you succeed a skill check, you gain a +1 bonus counter, or +2 bonus counters for critical successes. Bonus can rise up to a max of +15. You can utilize this bonus to assist you with a single skill check of your choice, at will, before it is rolled. This causes the bonus counter to reset back to zero.

What about sheep?

Racial traits:
- Woolen coat: Sheep have a permanent Resist 1 during combat. They have Resist 2 if the attack is ice/cold based.
- Follow the leader: At the start of combat, before initiative is rolled, a sheep may designate another player as "the leader". If the sheep comes after the leader during combat, he or she deals an extra 1d4 damage when attacking the same target as the leader. This trait can stack and raises the die if it does. E.G. If players Y and Z come after player X, player Y has +1d4 damage and player Z has +1d6 damage if they attack the same target as player X.

Potential extra trait:
- Being herded: When a sheep receives aid from another player, they get an automatic +1 bonus should the other player succeed in aiding them.

Combat traits are a nogo. That said, I was considering giving sheep this:

Baaramyuu: Whenever a sheep spends a magic point, its effects are doubled.

I personally like Demonu's Being Herded ability for Sheep. Possibly amp up the bonus to +2 or +3?

I could also see Weaver's ability working too, but I really like the Being Herded idea.

As for the Minotaur Zarhon, I don't know. It still seems too complicated to me - but take that criticism with a grain of salt, as I'm no expert. Still, perhaps you could pick two or three of those five abilities you listed?

How about Tread Lightly and Yeah? - Those two seem cool and simple.

1) Being Herded ability is fantastic. Not sure whether it should be +1 or +2, but it's simple, elegant, cool, different and flavorful. Kickass idea.

2) Yeah, Minotaur is still complicated. Also, has some balance-issues (the Yeah ability is going to get players rolling checks for no reason until they build up the max benefits). Here's a challenge; try to make a minotaur template with two, just two racial traits... No more than three sentences each - and so cool and flavorful that you cram all the awesome that is minotaur into those two traits. It might not work out, but it should help focus you.

3) Baaramyu or however it's spelled is a great reference - but I'm not sure I want a derp sheep granting +40 on each Yeehaw or Stare.

Take three of minotaurs:

Minotaur

Satisfaction guaranteed - 3/Day
Minotaurs can boost a chosen ally's trained skill check bonus to double its value for a single skill check. Alternately, they can give their own trained skill bonuses to an allies untrained skill check. If the skill critically fails, they re-roll without your bonus.
Optional mechanic: If they can think of a Iron-Will styled one-liner that fits the situation, the bonuses get an extra +3 added to them.

Bull's charge - Daily
Preparation time: 20 seconds
Weight limit: 1000lbs
Charge distance: Min 20 yards, Max 200 yards
Knock-away distance: Half of charge distance
Choose a target location or solid immovable object. You charge in a straight line towards it with your nigh-indestructible horns, moving at triple your normal running speed and knocking away any non-immobile object or creature within the weight limit out of your path. If this target is a solid object, you make an opposing stunts/endurance check against it. If you succeed, the object is demolished, broken, or has a minotaur-shaped hole in it, big enough for other creatures to move through.


Man, they're hard to think stuff up for. They just seem way too much combat/breaking stuff oriented, or their skills seem useless (maze navigating skills!). Doesn't help there isn't much to work with.

Zarhon wrote:Take three of minotaurs:

Minotaur

Satisfaction guaranteed - 3/Day
Minotaurs can boost a chosen ally's trained skill check bonus to double its value for a single skill check. Alternately, they can give their own trained skill bonuses to an allies untrained skill check. If the skill critically fails, they re-roll without your bonus.
Optional mechanic: If they can think of a Iron-Will styled one-liner that fits the situation, the bonuses get an extra +3 added to them.

Bull's charge - Daily
Preparation time: 20 seconds
Weight limit: 1000lbs
Charge distance: Min 20 yards, Max 200 yards
Knock-away distance: Half of charge distance
Choose a target location or solid immovable object. You charge in a straight line towards it with your nigh-indestructible horns, moving at triple your normal running speed and knocking away any non-immobile object or creature within the weight limit out of your path. If this target is a solid object, you make an opposing stunts/endurance check against it. If you succeed, the object is demolished, broken, or has a minotaur-shaped hole in it, big enough for other creatures to move through.


Man, they're hard to think stuff up for. They just seem way too much combat/breaking stuff oriented, or their skills seem useless (maze navigating skills!). Doesn't help there isn't much to work with.

Much better. Bull's Charge seems rather limited but "Satisfaction Guaranteed" seems like a great concept. Of course, Satisfaction Guaranteed is a perfect trait for a reroll on a failed check, but we have a lot of those already... Perhaps something like...

Satisfaction Guaranteed
At the beginning of the day, choose one of your trained skills. Until the end of the day, your allies are considered trained in that skill.


Some more concepts... Not saying all (or even any) should be used.

Show Them How You Rock
Once per gaming session, you can tell the DM to treat the next roll he makes as a natural 1.

Opposable Thumbs
Choose a Precision skill. You gain training in that skill.

Bull's Strength
Choose an athletics skill. You gain training in that skill.


The last two are on the edge of encouraging a certain build... But since they're free training they're probably okay, since you can't stack the bonuses on top of other training.. A diplomancer or historian minotaur would just get free training in those options and still be able to sink their other 3 training options into their normal skills.

Thoughts?

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Much better. Bull's Charge seems rather limited but "Satisfaction Guaranteed" seems like a great concept. Of course, Satisfaction Guaranteed is a perfect trait for a reroll on a failed check, but we have a lot of those already... Perhaps something like...

Satisfaction Guaranteed
At the beginning of the day, choose one of your trained skills. Until the end of the day, your allies are considered trained in that skill.


Some more concepts... Not saying all (or even any) should be used.

Show Them How You Rock
Once per gaming session, you can tell the DM to treat the next roll he makes as a natural 1.

Opposable Thumbs
Choose a Precision skill. You gain training in that skill.

Bull's Strength
Choose an athletics skill. You gain training in that skill.


The last two are on the edge of encouraging a certain build... But since they're free training they're probably okay, since you can't stack the bonuses on top of other training.. A diplomancer or historian minotaur would just get free training in those options and still be able to sink their other 3 training options into their normal skills.

Thoughts?

"Satisfaction guaranteed" looks excellent. It probably needs more than 2 trained skills to be versatile though (in other words, comboing it with opposable thumb + bull's strength is probably essential).

"Bull's strength" looks perfect as it is.

"Opposable thumbs" is also good, but it still feels like the fact that Minotaurs having hands should have some extra "neat" factor to them. The problem with this is that a "having hands" utility/trait is, in essence, an inferior version of ponykinesis.

"Show them how you rock" sounds awesome - It fits their mentality and the minor 4th wall breaking Iron Will had (when he gives a sales pitch to a nonexistent audience). Problem is I don't see anything stopping the DM from "wasting" the ability on something trivial. What constitutes a "DM roll" exactly? Does it affect combat?

Maybe instead of that, there could be a skill that lets the player make a deal, bargain or contract with the DM? Something like a bet against the DM of some sort, which gives a significant reward when won? Or if not that, the player intentionally restricting himself somehow in exchange for a promised benefit later?

Sales pitch - 1/session
The minotaur can choose to restrict himself in a certain way, in exchange for a promised benefit from the DM. The player can choose to end these restrictions at any time, but will lose any promised benefit. The length of this restriction is negotiated between the DM and the player: It can last anywhere from 1 hour (real-time), until the next group rest, or until the session ends. It should usually be at least half of the length of a session. Should the player complete their restriction successfully, they get a benefit from the DM that can be used in the current or the following session.

The restriction can be one of the following:
- No use of three types of skill checks, including those offered by allies through various utilities, or assisting an allies check on a restricted skill. Checks forced onto the player (such as from an opposing check, or through the player being controlled by another) do not count for this.
- No use of magic points, and no accepting magic points from others (refused points get refunded).
- Restrict yourself to five combat skills instead of six for each encounter. (since this is combat oriented, this one is probably optional).
- Starting encounters without the usual 4 starting Pips. (same as above)
- Restricting yourself from using/benefiting from two utility talents. Talents you are unable to use (due to daily limit, for example) cannot be restricted.

Benefits obtained can be:
- 1-2 extra magic points.
- Turning any one roll of you or an ally into a cutie mark critical success, regardless of value rolled.
- Free use of Out-of-character knowledge for your character, for the rest of the session.
- Restoring all charges of a chosen utility talent.
- Turning a single opponents roll into a critical failure, useable at any time.
- Hand picking an effect from the "tons of fun" table. The choice can be voted down by the other players.
- Harmony points for the whole group.
- Summoning Pinkie Pie. Celestia help you.

Zarhon wrote:"Satisfaction guaranteed" looks excellent. It probably needs more than 2 trained skills to be versatile though (in other words, comboing it with opposable thumb + bull's strength is probably essential).

Don't forget, non-pony races get 3 trained skills instead of 2 - so that helps a lot.

Zarhon wrote:"Bull's strength" looks perfect as it is.

"Opposable thumbs" is also good, but it still feels like the fact that Minotaurs having hands should have some extra "neat" factor to them. The problem with this is that a "having hands" utility/trait is, in essence, an inferior version of ponykinesis.

Glad to hear that you like them.

Zarhon wrote:"Show them how you rock" sounds awesome - It fits their mentality and the minor 4th wall breaking Iron Will had (when he gives a sales pitch to a nonexistent audience). Problem is I don't see anything stopping the DM from "wasting" the ability on something trivial. What constitutes a "DM roll" exactly? Does it affect combat?

Maybe instead of that, there could be a skill that lets the player make a deal, bargain or contract with the DM? Something like a bet against the DM of some sort, which gives a significant reward when won? Or if not that, the player intentionally restricting himself somehow in exchange for a promised benefit later?

Sales pitch - 1/session
The minotaur can choose to restrict himself in a certain way, in exchange for a promised benefit from the DM. The player can choose to end these restrictions at any time, but will lose any promised benefit. The length of this restriction is negotiated between the DM and the player: It can last anywhere from 1 hour (real-time), until the next group rest, or until the session ends. It should usually be at least half of the length of a session. Should the player complete their restriction successfully, they get a benefit from the DM that can be used in the current or the following session.

The restriction can be one of the following:
- No use of three types of skill checks, including those offered by allies through various utilities, or assisting an allies check. Checks forced onto them (such as from an opposing check) do not count for this.
- No use of magic points, and no accepting magic points from others (refused points get refunded).
- Restrict yourself to five combat skills instead of six for each encounter. (since this is combat oriented, this one is probably optional).
- Starting encounters without the usual 4 starting Pips. (same as above)
- Restricting yourself from using/benefiting from two utility talents.

Benefits obtained can be:
- 1-2 extra magic points.
- Turning any one roll of you or an ally into a cutie mark critical success, regardless of value rolled.
- Free use of Out-of-character knowledge for your character, for the rest of the session.
- Restoring all charges of a chosen utility talent.
- Turning a single opponents roll into a critical failure.
- Hand picking an effect from the "tons of fun" table. The choice can be voted down by the other players.
- Harmony points for the whole group.
- Summoning Pinkie Pie. Celestia help you.

I like the idea of a bet with the DM, but it would probably slow down sessions a lot for a long period of haggling. How about just rewriting the nat 1 talent to be more clear?

Show Them How You Rock - Daily
You can tell the DM to treat the result of a d20 roll he just made as a 1. No rerolls are possible.

For what it's worth, "Satisfaction Guaranteed" made me smile, and I like the uniqueness of "Show Them How You Rock."

Both are nice ideas.

Great to hear. Also, I'm half-wanting Zebras to get a constant boost as long as they rhyme whenever they're in character, and a penalty if they don't rhyme.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Also, I'm half-wanting Zebras to get a constant boost as long as they rhyme whenever they're in character, and a penalty if they don't rhyme.

^I would find this greatly amusing and flavorful (:

Though it would admittedly be harder to do in real time, it would still be pretty cool. Perhaps if you go that route, also allow them to talk in either beat-box noises or straight song lyrics - depending on player preference.

What kind of a bonus are you thinking, BTW? Maybe a +1/2 or -1/2 to utility checks? Or do you have something else in mind?

On another note, I was going over race concepts with my brother today, and he mentioned the idea of a "Bat Pony" race like the ones seen pulling Luna's chariot in Season 2.

If we wanted to go there, I'm thinking Bat Ponies could possibly switch out night vision for the weather controlling feats that regular Pegasi get.

On the batpony, see my Kirin topic. Specifically the part where Luna gets drunk.

Masterweaver wrote:On the batpony, see my Kirin topic. Specifically the part where Luna gets drunk.

I'm not really sure about that. Traditionally, Kirin are more scaly than those bat ponies were, and that flavor text was vetoed for the official lore if I remember correctly. If this is the sort of thing we get to vote on, then I'm weighing in for bat ponies as a seperate race.

Of course, if the bat ponies are not a type of kirin, then do we just call them "Bat Ponies", or something else? There aren't any plain, bat-winged equines in traditional mythology, and apparently the closest we've come to that in fiction are the Thestrals from Harry Potter, but that doesn't quite work out, either. I suppose we could try passing them off as Banshees (of the Discworld flavor), but even that connection's mighty strenuous. Do we start making stuff up, then? Fell Pegasus, perhaps?

Of course, it's not like Noun Ponies are exactly discouraged canonically, considering that we already have them in the Earth and Crystal flavors. I'm probably overthinking this.

Jason Shadow wrote:

Masterweaver wrote:On the batpony, see my Kirin topic. Specifically the part where Luna gets drunk.

I'm not really sure about that. Traditionally, Kirin are more scaly than those bat ponies were, and that flavor text was vetoed for the official lore if I remember correctly. If this is the sort of thing we get to vote on, then I'm weighing in for bat ponies as a seperate race.

Of course, if the bat ponies are not a type of kirin, then do we just call them "Bat Ponies", or something else? There aren't any plain, bat-winged equines in traditional mythology, and apparently the closest we've come to that in fiction are the Thestrals from Harry Potter, but that doesn't quite work out, either. I suppose we could try passing them off as Banshees (of the Discworld flavor), but even that connection's mighty strenuous. Do we start making stuff up, then? Fell Pegasus, perhaps?

Of course, it's not like Noun Ponies are exactly discouraged canonically, considering that we already have them in the Earth and Crystal flavors. I'm probably overthinking this.

I think that Nightpony, Nightblood, Shadowhoof, Batmare or similar are all fine if you want to pursue that. The Kirin options are different in flavor and still need rebalancing.

Here's what I'm thinking for the expansion and my remaining concerns, if any, about them.

Near-Done
Donkey (2 magic points is amazing, but I worry it's overpowered. I'd rather see some different, equally cool racial trait there - perhaps just activating their element once for free each da - or something relating to them being stubborn).

Buffalo (Pretty great template thus far)

Minotaur (With the recent streamlining, this great concept seems about ready to roll - we just need to figure out which of the final ideas we want to go for)

Hippogriff (JasonShadow's last pass at them is near-perfect. Thunderbird just needs a bit of polishing, as mentioned in the thread, and it'll be ready to roll)


Concepts I like

Baby Dragon (Still at the conceptual stages, but it's such an iconic concept that it definitely needs to be let into the system)

Zebras (I like the idea of giving the players bonuses while they speak in rhyme in-character, would open a fun roleplaying challenge for those interested and feel both flavorful and distinct)


Other concepts, like the Kirin, are very interesting but are so exotic I think they should be the headliners of the second expansion. I want to hit the more iconic racial options first.

^Batmare is a keeper.

"I am the darkness,
I am the knight,
I AM - BATMARE!"

And Baby Dragons - yay!

And I do like the Zebra idea. My only concern would be the possibility of giving the Zebra player a penalty when they can't come up with a good rhyme on the fly. I wouldn't want to play a race if I was getting constant penalties - so perhaps only give them a bonus for good role-playing and do away with a penalty for bad role-playing?

Would that be too good?

XandZero2 wrote:^Batmare is a keeper.

"I am the darkness,
I am the knight,
I AM - BATMARE!"

And Baby Dragons - yay!

And I do like the Zebra idea. My only concern would be the possibility of giving the Zebra player a penalty when they can't come up with a good rhyme on the fly. I wouldn't want to play a race if I was getting constant penalties - so perhaps only give them a bonus for good role-playing and do away with a penalty for bad role-playing?

Would that be too good?

I definitely want the Zebra to reward rhyming, and it's only in-character speech - so we can probably come up with some mechanic that makes them fun to play for those looking for the challenge. Good/bad roleplaying is way too fuzzy. Also, doesn't have to be high quality rhymes - any rhyme will do.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
I definitely want the Zebra to reward rhyming, and it's only in-character speech - so we can probably come up with some mechanic that makes them fun to play for those looking for the challenge. Good/bad roleplaying is way too fuzzy. Also, doesn't have to be high quality rhymes - any rhyme will do.

^When I typed 'good roleplaying,' that's exactly what I meant. For a zebra, good roleplaying is rhyming (whether good or bad, it's still entertaining - and even Zecura has had to stretch a few rhymes in some episodes).

Should they get an extra magic point? Or an extra element of harmony effect maybe? Perhaps they could treat one bonus skill as trained as long as they kept the rhyming up?

XandZero2 wrote:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
I definitely want the Zebra to reward rhyming, and it's only in-character speech - so we can probably come up with some mechanic that makes them fun to play for those looking for the challenge. Good/bad roleplaying is way too fuzzy. Also, doesn't have to be high quality rhymes - any rhyme will do.

^When I typed 'good roleplaying,' that's exactly what I meant. For a zebra, good roleplaying is rhyming (whether good or bad, it's still entertaining - and even Zecura has had to stretch a few rhymes in some episodes).

Should they get an extra magic point? Or an extra element of harmony effect maybe? Perhaps they could treat one bonus skill as trained as long as they kept the rhyming up?

That last option, or perhaps losing the benefit of their cutie mark, probably work best.

You know, forcing zebras to rhyme strikes me as somewhat detrimental. Zecora didn't rhyme in her native tongue.

Masterweaver wrote:You know, forcing zebras to rhyme strikes me as somewhat detrimental. Zecora didn't rhyme in her native tongue.

Could be a utility talent option. However, right now Zebras simply aren't an interesting racial option. They don't feel distinct enough. If you use rhyming as a utility option, then you need something else to distinguish them.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:

Masterweaver wrote:You know, forcing zebras to rhyme strikes me as somewhat detrimental. Zecora didn't rhyme in her native tongue.

Could be a utility talent option. However, right now Zebras simply aren't an interesting racial option. They don't feel distinct enough. If you use rhyming as a utility option, then you need something else to distinguish them.

Perhaps a modicum of control over plants and/or magical beasts? It seems like the sort of thing zebras would have if they routinely make their homes in places like the Everfree.

Aw... I really want to see the rhyming work myself. That's why I recommended giving Zebras a benefit but not a penalty for rhyming. Still, JS brings up a good option. Maybe Zebras could even just have a crazy knowledge of animal and plant life?

I'd still like the rhyming though... It is fun - and as goofy as all hell. That's why I love it (: