Re: Official Errata: Changes and fixes to the game (Subscription Recommended)

Ramsus Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:41 pm

I don't think he was calling Kindulas names. It was a cute comment about his TLDR, not meant to be aimed at anyone if I read it right. Or at least that's how it'd be if I'd said it.

Edit: Kindulas, I doubt most of us fail to understand what we could do with IW. We just choose not to most of the time. And some of us have GMs that set DCs for making a simple ball of fire at 35-40 for no earthly reason. Though that's not your fault.

Edit 2: You seem to be letting your frustration with Z2's comment get the best of you I'm thinking. Which is completely understandable. Still, you should realize the rest aren't trying to be quite as hostile.

Hayatecooper Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:43 pm

No, I put that there as a joke cause it was getting kinda long. But I know if someone reads this thread later that they'll skip it and get hit by that and it'll amuse me.

I've been doing a lot of bitching and no actual helping so here's my contribution and ideas to how a two talent IWC could be done(While also allowing people with both high imagination and low imagination to use it fairly). No one likes a flat penalty, no on. So what I'm going to suggest is you do something more akin to PK which has the 25 weight limit rather then a -x on the roll.

Idea

Copycat - at will
Your magic is high, but your creativity is low. You can copy magic effects you see on a daily bases or the innate magics of people close to you. You may attempt to copy any utility talents that you or your allies have with an Arcana roll though the roll is also set to 30(35?) or higher depending on the complexity of the talent in question. (evidently Magic costing talents would be at 50 while say something that's 5/day would be 30 you could probably make a table).

(This is a pre-req for the IWC we have now)

I choose copycat because it allows the same sorta effects of IWC but on a much smaller and more controllable scale, while also allowing it to feel flexible and useful. Broken? Most likely it needs fixing up, but it shows what I mean by giving a penalty without slapping on a flat bonus that just makes the talent feel a lot less fun.

(Third times a charm for attempting to post this)

tygerburningbright Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:44 pm

Nehiel Mori wrote:I think and could be quite wrong that some of this problem is caused by PH's not running Its Witchcraft properly. To allivate this potentially non-existence problem, wheres the way Its Witchcraft is supposed to be PH'ed for, taken from the PH handlers guide. Could end up not helping at all with the arguement BUUUT its here now.

Spoiler:

Correct me if I am even more wrong but is are not the main source of your 'Data' the Playtest games a very small sample size ? So would they not be at fault for skewing your views due to well players like Kindulas and PHs that set the DC to low?

Also to me the best option that I have see for this issue is to remove It's witchcraft all together. Now hear me out It's witchcraft is well the only talent in the entire system that is required to do most of what people think that skill should be able to do. So just making It's witchcraft an inherant part of the arcana skill might be good .

**Kindulas** Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:44 pm

Nehiel Mori wrote:
Kindulas wrote:
Did you assume I didn't read your post and called me a lazy bastard?

To be fair Kindulas, you are a lazy bastard.

Hey, my parents are married!
But yeah, I am lazy ;-;

Ramsus Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:50 pm

@Tyger: No. Refused. That's a bad idea. And you should feel bad? Naw. Just that sort of conflict resolution doesn't apply to game mechanics as a viable option. You'd end up without a system at all.

@Hayate: Hmmm. That's interesting. I have an idea, though it may be overcomplicated and silly. How about we give both the Copycat and the -7 Penalty versions as optional per-requisites for the standard no penalty version? Meaning people could choose which one they wanted as their prerequisite. That said, that's certainly a better idea for an alternative than I was expecting.

Hayatecooper Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:53 pm

@Hayate: Hmmm. That's interesting. I have an idea, though it may be overcomplicated and silly. How about we give both the Copycat and the -7 Penalty versions as optional per-requisites for the standard no penalty version? Meaning people could choose which one they wanted as their prerequisite. That said, that's certainly a better idea for an alternative than I was expecting.

Thanks Ramsus! I didn't actually expect people to like it to be honest, it was more just to give my point across. But I'm glad someone thinks it's a good idea.

>How about we give both the Copycat and the -7 Penalty versions as optional per-requisites for the standard no penalty version?

The problem with that is why would anyone take the -7 over Copycat especially if they are going to take IWC at lvl 1 anyway? If they were both pre-req, so many make it another tree with Copycat, -7, then IWC could work. But you'd then have the issue of it taking up three talent slots and that's really annoying and starts having the whole "You have to spec in this if you want to be any good at it" problem Flight seemed to have.

**Kindulas** Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:53 pm

tygerburningbright wrote:
Nehiel Mori wrote:I think and could be quite wrong that some of this problem is caused by PH's not running Its Witchcraft properly. To allivate this potentially non-existence problem, wheres the way Its Witchcraft is supposed to be PH'ed for, taken from the PH handlers guide. Could end up not helping at all with the arguement BUUUT its here now.

Spoiler:

Correct me if I am even more wrong but is are not the main source of your 'Data' the Playtest games a very small sample size ? So would they not be at fault for skewing your views due to well players like Kindulas and PHs that set the DC to low?

Also to me the best option that I have see for this issue is to remove It's witchcraft all together. Now hear me out It's witchcraft is well the only talent in the entire system that is required to do most of what people think that skill should be able to do. So just making It's witchcraft an inherant part of the arcana skill might be good .

1) Except we made the talent to do what we do with it, and people aren't using it to it's full capacity. We don't need to build it with the idea in mind that people won't use it well enough, as I stated before, it would be OP in the hands of those who use it correctly, for whom it is for in the first place.
2) We are arguing that IWC is OP, some are arguing it's fine. There is now way, ever, that it's underpowered. Unless people are simply not using it to the fullest extent, AGAIN. I think this is going to trigger a wonderful time where we nerf an undervalued talent and people now find themselves with more power once we teach you all that IWC can be used to do ANYTHING

Also, again, it is SPECIFICALLY FOR ARCANA SPECIALISTS.
You're not supposed to be able to just pick it up and use it was a non-specialist.
You never were.
The fact that people did proves it's broken.

Ramsus Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:58 pm

Kindulas just because you intended if for Arcana specialists doesn't mean that it's wrong that other people can and do use it.

Hayate, you misunderstood me. Of course that's sort my fault. I meant how about It's Witchcraft has the prerequisite: Copycat or -7 IW version.

Edit: And it really doesn't matter which people take before IW if they're taking both at level 1 as it just would override either one really. This is more an idea for those who only want to put in one Utility into the idea or have to now change their characters and don't want to drop any of their current Utilities.

Hayatecooper Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:59 pm

) Except we made the talent to do what we do with it, and people aren't using it to it's full capacity. We don't need to build it with the idea in mind that people won't use it well enough, as I stated before, it would be OP in the hands of those who use it correctly, for whom it is for in the first place.
2) We are arguing that IWC is OP, some are arguing it's fine. There is now way, ever, that it's underpowered. Unless people are simply not using it to the fullest extent, AGAIN. I think this is going to trigger a wonderful time where we nerf an undervalued talent and people now find themselves with more power once we teach you all that IWC can be used to do ANYTHING

Also, again, it is SPECIFICALLY FOR ARCANA SPECIALISTS.
You're not supposed to be able to just pick it up and use it was a non-specialist.
You never were.
The fact that people did proves it's broken.

See no. I disagree with this.

Lets take two potential players

Jane.
Jane is a huge MLP fan and can name of the top of her head every single spell that Twilight has ever done ever. She loves magic, knows everything about it and could easily apply it in real world situations if she so choose, to her magic is versitle, unique and as moldable as wet clay. She took IWC so she can bend the world to her will and make herself princess of the night.

Steve
Steve is fairly new fan of ponies, but he likes anime and has come up with the idea to make an earth ponies that can cause earth quakes when they smash there hooves into the ground, though that will be their only real magical effect. He took IWC purely for this ability/

>Also, again, it is SPECIFICALLY FOR ARCANA SPECIALISTS.

So, you're saying that Steve is using IWC wrong? Even though that is the only way for him to achieve the cool effect he wants to produce. He shouldn't be allowed to and you have full rights not to design with him in mind cause it's not the way a "Min-Maxed" arcana build would use it? Sorry I call bullshit.

**Paper Shadow** Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:01 pm

Y'know, we don't have a talent that causes earthquakes, do we?

We should go make one at some point...

**Kindulas** Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:03 pm

Hayatecooper wrote:
) Except we made the talent to do what we do with it, and people aren't using it to it's full capacity. We don't need to build it with the idea in mind that people won't use it well enough, as I stated before, it would be OP in the hands of those who use it correctly, for whom it is for in the first place.
2) We are arguing that IWC is OP, some are arguing it's fine. There is now way, ever, that it's underpowered. Unless people are simply not using it to the fullest extent, AGAIN. I think this is going to trigger a wonderful time where we nerf an undervalued talent and people now find themselves with more power once we teach you all that IWC can be used to do ANYTHING

Also, again, it is SPECIFICALLY FOR ARCANA SPECIALISTS.
You're not supposed to be able to just pick it up and use it was a non-specialist.
You never were.
The fact that people did proves it's broken.

See no. I disagree with this.

Lets take two potential players

Jane.
Jane is a huge MLP fan and can name of the top of her head every single spell that Twilight has ever done ever. She loves magic, knows everything about it and could easily apply it in real world situations if she so choose, to her magic is versitle, unique and as moldable as wet clay. She took IWC so she can bend the world to her will and make herself princess of the night.

Steve
Steve is fairly new fan of ponies, but he likes anime and has come up with the idea to make an earth ponies that can cause earth quakes when they smash there hooves into the ground, though that will be their only real magical effect. He took IWC purely for this ability/

>Also, again, it is SPECIFICALLY FOR ARCANA SPECIALISTS.

So, you're saying that Steve is using IWC wrong? Even though that is the only way for him to achieve the cool effect he wants to produce. He shouldn't be allowed to and you have full rights not to design with him in mind cause it's not the way a "Min-Maxed" arcana build would use it? Sorry I call bullshit.

Because using magic to cause earthquakes shouldn't require incredible magical skill?
I mean, shouldn't it?

Ramsus Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:04 pm

Earthquakes = weather-crafting? At least if your GM is cool. =P

**Kindulas** Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:04 pm

Paper Shadow wrote:Y'know, we don't have a talent that causes earthquakes, do we?

We should go make one at some point...

If that's a canon thing, that makes more sense that using IWC for it. We have a Tsunami talent after all

**Nehiel Mori** Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:05 pm

Gonna make a quick note here in regards to Kindulas (that I can say as I'm sitting right next to him.)

If it seems like hes angry, he isn't, hes just a loud person and trying to get that across. Hes not actually upset at anyone. However, Kindulas, maybe take a look at what your are posting? Its just coming off as angrier then I know it actually is.

**Nehiel Mori** Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:06 pm

Freaky Knowledge in causing earthquakes + IWC should let you make earthquakes. Imo. But take arcana as well because this is an arcana based skill.

Xel Unknown Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:08 pm

Yeah... At this point it keeps feeling like you just want to have only people that min-max arcana to use that talent. Something else I thought this system wasn't built to be ani-minmaxing...

Hayatecooper Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:10 pm

Because using magic to cause earthquakes shouldn't require incredible magical skill?
I mean, shouldn't it?

Well, depends on the size of the quake I guess Razz

Probably not the best example to give, I should have thought that through more and I'm sorry and you'll hear that a lot from me. But my point basically comes down to, one specializes in arcana one does not but what's to do a cool magic effect.

Why should the people who want to do a cool magical effect not have access to IWC or have it nerfed on them. I get IWC can be OP in the right hands, and that's fine and dandy and all. But not everyone is going to use IWC to be an overpowered magic user, so saying it should only be for "Arcana Specialists" is insane and unfair.

Y'know, we don't have a talent that causes earthquakes, do we?

We should go make one at some point...

Also I agree, I want to make a Earthquake causing Earth pony now, get on that Utility talent people. Razz

**Kindulas** Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:13 pm

Kindulas wrote:
Hayatecooper wrote:
) Except we made the talent to do what we do with it, and people aren't using it to it's full capacity. We don't need to build it with the idea in mind that people won't use it well enough, as I stated before, it would be OP in the hands of those who use it correctly, for whom it is for in the first place.
2) We are arguing that IWC is OP, some are arguing it's fine. There is now way, ever, that it's underpowered. Unless people are simply not using it to the fullest extent, AGAIN. I think this is going to trigger a wonderful time where we nerf an undervalued talent and people now find themselves with more power once we teach you all that IWC can be used to do ANYTHING

Also, again, it is SPECIFICALLY FOR ARCANA SPECIALISTS.
You're not supposed to be able to just pick it up and use it was a non-specialist.
You never were.
The fact that people did proves it's broken.

See no. I disagree with this.

Lets take two potential players

Jane.
Jane is a huge MLP fan and can name of the top of her head every single spell that Twilight has ever done ever. She loves magic, knows everything about it and could easily apply it in real world situations if she so choose, to her magic is versitle, unique and as moldable as wet clay. She took IWC so she can bend the world to her will and make herself princess of the night.

Steve
Steve is fairly new fan of ponies, but he likes anime and has come up with the idea to make an earth ponies that can cause earth quakes when they smash there hooves into the ground, though that will be their only real magical effect. He took IWC purely for this ability/

>Also, again, it is SPECIFICALLY FOR ARCANA SPECIALISTS.

So, you're saying that Steve is using IWC wrong? Even though that is the only way for him to achieve the cool effect he wants to produce. He shouldn't be allowed to and you have full rights not to design with him in mind cause it's not the way a "Min-Maxed" arcana build would use it? Sorry I call bullshit.

Because using magic to cause earthquakes shouldn't require incredible magical skill?
I mean, shouldn't it?

The point of IWC really is to allow a wide range of improvised magical abilities. Using it give a player the ability to do one thing when they aren't otherwise magical DOES go against what IWC actually does.

It's not that we don't design with Steve in mind, it means IWC isn't for him. It means we need a new talent to do what he wants to do. Maybe have the DM allow it as a houserule talent. But IWC isn't /for/ using a single ability.

I apologize if I'm coming off angry I can come off as snarky sometimes when I argue. Do forgive me.

**Kindulas** Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:15 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Yeah... At this point it keeps feeling like you just want to have only people that min-max arcana to use that talent. Something else I thought this system wasn't built to be ani-minmaxing...

Min-maxing not equal to specializing.
We have kept people from grabbing a bunch of bonuses and getting to like 50 flat arcana.
However, the point of IWC /is/ so that arcana specialists (15-18) can get the most out of their skill and generally "do magic," because being able to do improvised magic is something we wanted in the system.

Ramsus Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:17 pm

I still think earthquakes are just high DC Weather-Crafting.

Anyway, back to IW...

Well, I don't know... seems like most of you missed this? Nobody commented anyway.

I think we could do IW as is having the prerequisite of "Copycat or the -7 version of IW". This should please most people. If the devs think this is too weird and complicated, then I'd vote for Copycat over the -7.

There's certainly no doubting that IW is really strong as Kindulas points out. But, that doesn't mean the only way to use it involved being an Arcana specialist. I mean, we've got characters in the system that prove it isn't the case. So if we're going to patch IW we should be aiming for a patch that all kinds of users find acceptable, regardless of the initial design intent.

Hayatecooper Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:22 pm

>I apologize if I'm coming off angry I can come off as snarky sometimes when I argue. Do forgive me.

You don't it's cool. At least not to me anyway.

>"The point of IWC really is to allow a wide range of improvised magical abilities. Using it give a player the ability to do one thing when they aren't otherwise magical DOES go against what IWC actually does."

And I get that, but why shouldn't it be used for one thing(Maybe small waterspouts every time you do an acrobatics check) or lots of smaller things?(The water spouts, maybe making miniature rainbows or make the really annoying mare down the street meow every time she talks) It just sounds like your saying that "You shouldn't take IWC unless your planning on doing some world breaking effect every hour"

Any character should be able to do cool magic effects, even with an Arcana of like 7, if you roll high enough why not make a stiff breeze blow someones hat off so you can steal there wallet? or make leaves fall onto wet paint to annoy the work-pony, or steal a fruit to help a homeless filly or colt?

That's the beauty of IWC you can do these small things and it gives everyone access to it. Evidently high Arcana builds will be doing more, but I don't see why characters will lower arcana scores should be exempt or punished for trying.

That's why I like Copycat to get to Ramsus. I'd much prefer that then the -7 as a pre-req (Though you'd get a lot less use out of it as a low arcana build evidently, though you could still crit or get help from a team mate(HA! PROMOTING TEAM WORK!) and that's going to make the moment feel a lot more special.)

Z2 Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:33 pm

I support wacky copycatting over random -7s.

Xel Unknown Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:46 pm

Magic is only to used by the powerhouse characters... Nobody else may dare try to use the talent. That's what I've seen the Dev's viewpoint on Magic.

Edit: I'm sorry for the angistic tone of my posts... I've not been in the best of moods to make a long story short while posting on this... But I still stand by what I said. Just wish I said them in a less hostile tone.

**Kindulas** Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:03 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Magic is only to used by the powerhouse characters... Nobody else may dare try to use the talent. That's what I've seen the Dev's viewpoint on Magic.

Edit: I'm sorry for the angistic tone of my posts... I've not been in the best of moods to make a long story short while posting on this... But I still stand by what I said. Just wish I said them in a less hostile tone.

It's alright, I haven't noticed you being hostile.
Well, if you don't want to do powerhouse things, actually, you should be able to do minor things with the -7 unless you have super low Arcana. If you want to do magical things without high arcana, take specific talents.

If you want to do the super, super minor things that Hayatecooper things are describing, I mean... stuff like that SHOULD be doable by like 8-10 arcana people even with the -7. It all depends. And besides, you can talk to your DM if they make that simple stuff too hard. Because we believe that creating just enough wind to knock off someone's hat should have a very small DC if you have even the 1st tier IWC.

Hayatecooper Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:19 pm

Kindulas wrote:

If you want to do the super, super minor things that Hayatecooper things are describing, I mean... stuff like that SHOULD be doable by like 8-10 arcana people even with the -7. It all depends. And besides, you can talk to your DM if they make that simple stuff too hard. Because we believe that creating just enough wind to knock off someone's hat should have a very small DC if you have even the 1st tier IWC.

Well, no.
If I have 10 and your making me take -7, even an easy DC of 15 is still rather hard, cause you're only getting a +3 bonus. Heck, if you only take 6, that's negative 1. So that's 16 or higher you have to roll.

I don't mind the extra pre-req, I can live with that I guess, but I don't have to worship it.
I don't like the -7 bonus, which is why I suggested something like Copycat.
Which I'm curious of what you think of by the way.

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