Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

[sunbeam]

Combat goes as following:
Initiative --> use Talisman of Haste to ensure you go first.
Turn 1: Bloodpact, Spectral Warden on yourself --> 1 pips
Turn 2: get 1 pips, Bloodpact, My Life is Yours on yourself, Warden heal --> 0 pips
Turn 3: get 2 pips, Bloodpact, My Life is Yours/any standard action, Warden heal --> 0 pips
Turn 4: get 3 pips, Spectral Warden on first Spectral Warden/yourself (if 1st warden is gone), My Life is Yours, Warden heal --> 0 pips
Turn 5: get 3 pips, Celestial Avenger, deal 1d8 damage, Warden Heal --> 0 pips
Repeat turn 4 and 5 to accumulate heals and damage (Celestial Avengers can also deal 1d12 when an ally is attacked)

Where do the additional pips here come from if blood pact only gains 1 pip per turn? Are you supposed to use a standard action to gain them?

[Hayatecooper]

Multiple Bloodpacts essentially.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

History - rename to Academics

Aha!  Was trying to think of a proper term that would be better.  I'm still of the mindset that a few of the skills could stand to be renamed and about a third of them could stand to be reworded.  Considering the valid comment that flat Arcana probably could be more overt on it's options, I propose that Failsafe Spell have the prerequisites removed, especially since you can have a character that dispels magic who isn't a super mage.

Failsafe Spell:

---

On an entirely separate note, I still think that Detect Thoughts could stand rewording and/or a new name considering it's already been confirmed to be mind reading.

Detect Thoughts - Current:

Detect Thoughts - Proposal:

 I like Read Thoughts. However, players need magecraft to dispel magical effects with arcana checks. I could see a separate utility talent that gives players the ability to dispel magical effects without magecraft too though.

[Hayatecooper]

Dan, thoughts on how to Nerf Demonu's build? not to sound pushy but I've seen it in action in my campaign and it's scary.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Well, Blood Pact gives you a static effect that says "for the rest of the battle, X happens at the start of your turn". Using it additional times is redundant, you don't get new copies of that ability. It basically changes the game rules to allow the extra pip. Once the ability is on you the first time, using it again doesn't provide any extra benefits.

In short, the build simply doesn't function that way.

[Hayatecooper]

So... essentially blood pact doesn't stack?

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Right.

[Hayatecooper]

Oh thank god
Yay
he can't break my campaign anymore

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

At least not with *that* combo. =)

[Xel Unknown]

There are other ways... There are other ways... This build... Isn't fully dead yet.

[LoganAura]

Should probably clarify that.
A lot of blood-pact builds I know of account for that stacking.

[Xel Unknown]

Personally I think the possible Blood Pack Stacking is fine by itself... Cause it'd stack both the pip gain and the HP loss... Making such stacking quite harmful

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Not harmful enough in the right combo.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Kindulas is clarifying it now in the comment of the move.

[Hayatecooper]

Though Xel is right, the Build can be pulled off regardless
Rabid Recovery and Rabbit Filled hat
Can't do it at lvl 1(lvl 5 maybe?), but hey, you're still invincible.

[Pingcode]

Previous Post:

No thoughts on this front?

[ZamuelNow]

However, players need magecraft to dispel magical effects with arcana checks. I could see a separate utility talent that gives players the ability to dispel magical effects without magecraft too though.

I actually feel a slightly revamped Failsafe Spell could fit the role of a dispel talent. Failsafe currently has a rather hefty prerequisite cost if your true goal is really just to dispel things and I can't see how it would hurt to use it for Magical Tricks or the few other utilities like Forcefield that explicitly mention Arcana checks.

[Demonu]

Well, Blood Pact gives you a static effect that says "for the rest of the battle, X happens at the start of your turn". Using it additional times is redundant, you don't get new copies of that ability. It basically changes the game rules to allow the extra pip. Once the ability is on you the first time, using it again doesn't provide any extra benefits.

In short, the build simply doesn't function that way.

Oh, that's funny: when I asked wether or not Bloodpact could stack some months ago (or when it was published), it could stack.
Even got the warning for it not to overdo it because dying of multiple Bloodpacts would be hilarious but stupid.

Anyway, the build is not busted. Merely delayed. If you get either one of these:

1) Nothing Up My Sleeve
Reduce the energy cost of combat talents you use to conjure conjurations by 1 energy. Their costs cannot be reduced to less than 0.

2) Rabbit-Filled Hat - 3500 Gold
Trinket
Reduce the energy cost of talents you use to conjure creatures or weapons by 2 energy. The costs can’t be reduced to below 0.

The build still goes off. You only need to be level 3 or 4 to pull it off but still broken.

[Fury of the Tempest]

The build still goes off. You only need to be level 3 or 4 to pull it off but still broken.

Something to note.

Utilities can deal damage. Cut-scene Immunity only protects from attacks.

Hell, I can smash that combo open with Draw Blood. A +3 talent. Spectral Warden only have 1 hp. So, 1 ongoing damage will kill it.

So Demonu, I believe I have just fixed a broken combo.

I actually feel a slightly revamped Failsafe Spell could fit the role of a dispel talent. Failsafe currently has a rather hefty prerequisite cost if your true goal is really just to dispel things and I can't see how it would hurt to use it for Magical Tricks or the few other utilities like Forcefield that explicitly mention Arcana checks.

I wouldn't mind this change at all.

Arcana - represents magical expertise and governs spells, can by default be used to detect and dispel magic, can use the magecraft rules when applied to utility talents you already possess.
History - rename to Academics, have it be the clearing house for all general knowledges and stuff like linguistics. Steals the Magical Theory domain from Arcana to make clear distinction.

Althrough I don't completely disagree that Magecraft is entirely broken, or warped, or whatever people want to call it. Changing History to Academics would make it a much stronger and usable skill. I mean, there isn't exactly a skill that covers a knowledge of science now, is there? But Academics would cover it.

Academics could cover knowledge of the theroy of spells, while Arcana is knowledge of actually using, applying and regonizing magic... Academics the knowledge of mechanical theroy, and mechanics actually using that theroy.

[A1C Bronymous]

Yeah, there are a bunch of "knowledge of x" topics aren't accurately represented, and I think most people resorted to using flat Knowledge checks.

A few other things about certain skills- firstly, I'm pretty certain there are a good deal of "magical" UTs that people use Arcana with, that don't actually require it. Ponykinesis, Teleport, they aren't defined as requiring an arcana roll to use. At least they way I've been playing it, is that if it needs a roll, it says so, like Forcefield, and other than that success is more or less assured. Is this correct?
This also raises a question about the Arcana rolls in UTs (and really all skill rolls in UTs), in that since anything can be reflavored to anything, there will be times when say, forcefield, will be the result of technology instead of magic, and therefore Arcana doesn't really apply, and a different skill should be used. But for now I think that's a case by case basis for DMs to decide.

Also Streetwise. What actually is streetwise supposed to be? Because from what I gather, it's only uses all pretty much fall under different skills. Is it your ability to ask around and gain information about an area? That's basically Persuasion. Is it being able to look around an area and find the way you need to go? That could just be perception, though this is the most likely use. Knowing about an area, knowing where to go, what there is to do? That probably falls under History, or general knowledge.

[Demonu]

Something to note.

Utilities can deal damage. Cut-scene Immunity only protects from attacks.

Hell, I can smash that combo open with Draw Blood. A +3 talent. Spectral Warden only have 1 hp. So, 1 ongoing damage will kill it.

So Demonu, I believe I have just fixed a broken combo.

Yes but that's PVP (something that normally doesn't happen) and monsters/enemies (usually) aren't build like PC's.

If your GM knows of said combo and suddenly all his creatures have ways of bypassing it, you could argue that the GM is purposely designing his creatures solely to take out 1 specific build. And that's terrible...

[sunbeam]

You made yourself invulnverable, thereby breaking any sense of combat challenge the DM could possibly attempt. That's rather terrible as well.

But in any case, we seem to have an exploit. Should we move this to the 'found something broken' thread, so we can inspect it?

https://ponytales.forumotion.com/t488p30-think-you-found-something-broken-or-severely-overpowered-share-it-here

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Definitely should move the build discussion there.

However, I will note that the following attitude player is rather silly.

Player: I have made myself an invincible character! He's immune to 70% of the effects in the game! He cannot be destroyed!


DM: Okay, well his enemies are going to learn of his power and - like smart people do - send guys that can exploit his weaknesses after him. The way that Lex Luthor exploits kryptonite when dealing with superman.


Player: That's cheating! 


Obviously, I don't think this is what you're actually thinking Demonu - this is just a comedic example that gets the general point across. DMs should absolutely have their villains react intelligentlyand work to exploit the weaknesses of the party. A DM's job is to place obstactles in the player's path and give them challenges to overcome (or fail at if they make the wrong decisions). The enemies should behave realistically and intelligently too when possible. However, a DM obviously shouldn't overdo it. Encounters that play to a characters' strengths are just as important as those that exploit a character's weaknesses. If you have an AOE blaster in your party, make sure that party comes across hordes of minions and swarms of enemies every now and then too.

A DM's job is to challenge the party fairly and honestly. A good DM should also give players a chance to shine and feel awesome.

[Fury of the Tempest]

Not to mention that ongoing damage destroys the build and its not that rare to have a utility deal ongoing damage.

Admittedly, there is about a 3:1 ratio when it comes to attacks: utilities that inflict ongoing damage, but as you said. Monster's don't build like players, and its still 1/4 of the ongoing damage talents.

[Demonu]

Not to mention that ongoing damage destroys the build and its not that rare to have a utility deal ongoing damage.

Admittedly, there is about a 3:1 ratio when it comes to attacks: utilities that inflict ongoing damage, but as you said. Monster's don't build like players, and its still 1/4 of the ongoing damage talents.

Ongoing damage, which is save ends, against a build that puts out a Spectral Warden every other turn to heal.
Yeah, I know who I'm betting on.

DM: Okay, well his enemies are going to learn of his power and - like smart people do - send guys that can exploit his weaknesses after him. The way that Lex Luthor exploits kryptonite when dealing with superman.


Player: That's cheating!


Obviously, I don't think this is what you're actually thinking Demonu

Yeah, I obviously didn't mean it like that and of course, enemies/villains learn from their mistakes should they be recurring villains. I was thinking more along the lines of demolishing a boss character and suddenly every (important) (boss) character/enemy that comes after has something to counteract it.

But still, it's a build that at level 1 makes you immune to the majority of enemies and can win every fight in time. Continue in the other thread then.
(if I may, I'd like to see something done about without having too many nerfing/changing going on. But then again, I'm not in the design part of this forum)

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