Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

[Fury of the Tempest]

Ongoing damage, which is save ends, against a build that puts out a Spectral Warden every other turn to heal.
Yeah, I know who I'm betting on.

Spectral Warden only 1 health. Kill the warden, and your left wide, wide open. Keep killing the warden, and your unable to summon both a warden and an avenger.

I know who I'm betting on.

And that is of course, ignoring other effects like daze or stun which can further slow you down.

[Demonu]

Ongoing damage, which is save ends, against a build that puts out a Spectral Warden every other turn to heal.
Yeah, I know who I'm betting on.

Spectral Warden only 1 health. Kill the warden, and your left wide, wide open. Keep killing the warden, and your unable to summon both a warden and an avenger.

I know who I'm betting on.

And that is of course, ignoring other effects like daze or stun which can further slow you down.

So you mean:
Summon Warden
Enemy places ongoing damage on it
Summon Warden, first Warden dies.
Enemy places ongoing damage on it.
Repeat
Keep killing the warden, keep summoning the warden, repeat at infinitum, stalemate?

If you never target the PC, this can keep on going forever. Talking about 1 on 1 here of course. Otherwise, test it?
But then you'll have to take into account that said build still has other options due to having other combat talents.

[Fury of the Tempest]

So you mean:
Summon Warden
Enemy places ongoing damage on it
Summon Warden, first Warden dies.
Enemy places ongoing damage on it.
Repeat
Keep killing the warden, keep summoning the warden, repeat at infinitum, stalemate?

If you never target the PC, this can keep on going forever. Talking about 1 on 1 here of course. Otherwise, test it?
But then you'll have to take into account that said build still has other options due to having other combat talents.

]

That is, assuming 1 on 1, and if the enemy only takes 1 action per turn.

And yes, it'll have other options. But those options mean it will take damage, and ongoing damage makes it easy to defeat you when its not 1 on 1.

[Demonu]

So you mean:
Summon Warden
Enemy places ongoing damage on it
Summon Warden, first Warden dies.
Enemy places ongoing damage on it.
Repeat
Keep killing the warden, keep summoning the warden, repeat at infinitum, stalemate?

If you never target the PC, this can keep on going forever. Talking about 1 on 1 here of course. Otherwise, test it?
But then you'll have to take into account that said build still has other options due to having other combat talents.

]

That is, assuming 1 on 1, and if the enemy only takes 1 action per turn.

And yes, it'll have other options. But those options mean it will take damage, and ongoing damage makes it easy to defeat you when its not 1 on 1.

Not 1 on 1?
Meaning I have an entire party backing me up with strikers, tanks, healers and/or disrupters?
(the build I described? I'm using it and I'm the healer of the bunch. Says a lot when the white mage takes down boss characters singlehandedly...)

Look, all I'm saying is that in a 1 on 1 fight against an enemy that can be beaten, the build will work.
And let's keep it at that because if we're assuming X about a fight and Y about a character, we can keep this discussion going forever.

I merely pointed out something I believe to be broken. If nobody else does so, that's cool. Then I can keep on soloing bosses. ^^

[Fury of the Tempest]

When a party of foes is against you, and can focus you down, even if you have allies? Hell, if you are the healer, then you won't be able to be invunrable 100% of the time.

And no, its says nothing when you use such a cheep tactic against a boss.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Guys, move this to the overpowered build discussion thread. I'd like to examine it further, but I can't comment on it in detail till it's there.

[ZamuelNow]

Also Streetwise. What actually is streetwise supposed to be? Because from what I gather, it's only uses all pretty much fall under different skills. Is it your ability to ask around and gain information about an area? That's basically Persuasion. Is it being able to look around an area and find the way you need to go? That could just be perception, though this is the most likely use. Knowing about an area, knowing where to go, what there is to do? That probably falls under History, or general knowledge.

Streetwise is essentially a form of intuition with a mix of the skills you mentioned that's usually more applied to figuring out how people or a locale works so you can either blend in or find things. I believe that specific term as far as RPGs are concerned is from DnD though it is a real word. I'd argue that it's probably the skill that is the most in need of a rename (followed closely by History and much more distantly by Mechanics). It definitely has the least useful description. Broadening it out to simply be Intuition would give it a solid niche compared to other skills since it would be for simply knowing or figuring things out as opposed to gaining information through research. Essentially the wisdom vs knowledge divide. Some overlap still exists but that's fine since that happens. "Intuition" opens up a lot more character concepts or helps flesh out some existing ones.

[Ramsus]

Except Intuition doesn't cover a lot of what it does. It's also largely for finding people/places and various other activities that pertain to having up to date information or having the knowledge of knowing where/how to get that information. So, renaming it to something that doesn't apply to half of what it does would be a move in the wrong direction.

[Kindulas]

Except Intuition doesn't cover a lot of what it does. It's also largely for finding people/places and various other activities that pertain to having up to date information or having the knowledge of knowing where/how to get that information. So, renaming it to something that doesn't apply to half of what it does would be a move in the wrong direction.

Yeah Intuition is something that Perception often covers, Streetwise is actually going out and talking to people
What really needs to happen is "Heal" changed to "Medical"

[ZamuelNow]

It's an interesting bit of perspective in that I see the concept of Intuition being far more broad than simply Streetwise while Kindulas and Ramsus see the opposite. 'Talking to people' sounds like a combination of Perception and Persuasion. Though I guess it could be noted that "Intuition" would be more of outright changing the concept of the skill rather than just broadening Streetwise. I don't see Intuition as a part of Perception since I see it as having greater capacity in a vacuum than viewing a specific thing. Having a funny feeling about something and danger sense rather than seeing or hearing something.

As far as Heal vs Medicine, I guess that works but it may limit some concepts. The name in itself isn't confusing, Heal just needs better definition to what all you can and can't do with it. Changing History to Academics seems like a far better change for character concepts since it opens up options for all types of information and study capacity than just the past.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

I think it's a bit of both actually. Intuition is broader than Streetwise, but it doesn't necessarily include Streetwise in its breadth. Russia is broader than Venezuela, but Venezuela isn't part of Russia. Intuition wouldn't do a great job of replacing the functionality of Streetwise. It's also so broad and so fuzzy as to make life a little difficult for DMs - you might as well just roll a Sense check.

Also, it comes a little close to telling the player what their character is like as a person - rather than just defining the character's capabilities. That's why we called the standard 'Intelligence' 'Wisdom' and 'Charisma' scores Knowledge and Sense instead. A character can have high Knowledge in lots of different ways. Maybe it's a dumb wizard that just works incredibly hard to overcome his setbacks, or perhaps he's a magical savant that loves the, "Wavy hands and magic thingies", or perhaps he's just genuinely smart. Lots more options than if any character with an arcana check is required to be 'intelligent' and if every maxed out fligher is forced to have a low intelligence. That's defining personality rather than capability.

Intuition isn't really intruding on this territory. Just thought I'd mention it, as it's something that matters for the skill-names discussion.

Oh, I like Academics instead of History too - but it does make me wonder why Arcana doesn't fall in there. I tend to use History as a general, "do you know about stuff" check - like what type of plant this is as well as what king ruled where.

[Dusk Raven]

Oh, I like Academics instead of History too - but it does make me wonder why Arcana doesn't fall in there. I tend to use History as a general, "do you know about stuff" check - like what type of plant this is as well as what king ruled where.

I sort of think of History as "Science" and Arcana as relating to anything magical - kinda like D&D 3.5's Spellcraft and Knowledge of Arcana, The Planes, and Religion rolled into one.

Then again, in my setting, magic is such a broad enough thing that it merits an entire skill. That might not be true of other campaigns.

[ZamuelNow]

Oh, I like Academics instead of History too - but it does make me wonder why Arcana doesn't fall in there. I tend to use History as a general, "do you know about stuff" check - like what type of plant this is as well as what king ruled where.

Arcana doesn't seem to just be the facts about magic but caries a bit of the practical application of it, similar to how Heal allows you to actually do the medical work you've learned.  It may fluctuate by GM but it could be argued that someone who knows about it but can't do it actually should have History/Academics.  It's still useful in an aid check since one player may know more about a magical subject and be able to aid the actual mage.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

The official position is that it takes Magecraft to turn Arcana into a skill that lets you actually work spells. Arcana just represents magical knowledge. The versatility and power of allowing arcana to let you work spells comes with a two utility talent tax (the requirements to get to magecraft).

[Fury of the Tempest]

I think Academics would be something like the theroy of magic, while Arcana specifically would the applications of magic, how to actually use magic, and not just the theroy behind magic... even if your not actually casting spells... if that makes sense.

[SparkImpulse]

in this case, "history" makes more sense ... since "the theory of magic" if you can cast at all, should let you construct new spells. So, that's arcana, while "academics" would be the history of how ponies have developed the science of arcana, and a who's-who of famous scientists.

Thus "magecraft" is the magical equivalent of athletics training ... you know the theory, and you have put in a lot of time turning theories into practice, and have since proven you have the aptitude to actually perform at well above party-favor levels of spell casting and spell learning.

So, to try to tie it to real world things, "history" is like having a degree in it ... or a low skill means you just watch the discovery channel a lot. "Arcana" means your day to day job sees you every week, or every other week, using a skill that would be in that classification. You have first-hoof knowledge but it's not like you could build a car from a box of spare parts.

Magecraft says you bought the box of spare parts, and want to build a car. How well it runs depends on your first-hand knowledge, IE your arcana check.

I tend to speak in walls of text. Nevertheless, have I reduced confusion for anypony, assuming stairc et al. say I'm pretty close to what they're trying for ?

[Kindulas]

Yeah, Arcana as a skill IS knowledge of magical theory - that's why it's powered by "Knowledge," it's a knowledge check. Magecraft is the practical application that's powered by said knowledge.

Also, on the "Intuition" front, the thing that has to be noted is that "Perception" is action two very different skills in one. It's both the physical perception of noticing something as well as the mental intuition of realizing the significance or meaning of things - what 4e called "Insight"

it's like how Persuasion is Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate.

Also, if you think heal does a good job of explaining what heal can and can't do, you might have it wrong. Heal doesn't let you give hit points to people, though it does allow you to cure serious ailments (though in many situations it seems like you'd have to do heal for knowing what to do and mechanics to do it.) However, heal is also generally used to determine medical knowledge - what created a wound, is this safe to eat, what kinds of organs does this creature have - and these things aren't exactly "healing"

And yes, Mechanics is a problem too - many seem to think it's a knowledge of machines, but it's actually just fine motor skills. We called it mechanics because it's generally used to fiddle with machines, but often a player might create an engineer who sunk everything into mechanics, thinking that will let them understand how engineering works - but that's a knowledge (any typically Arcana, in magi-tech settings) thing, mechanics just lets them tighten the screws accurately.

[Fury of the Tempest]

... Well, I guess it could be excused that general academics wouldn't include arcana academics? Because changing history to academics seems like a great idea to me. Makes things a whole lot easier for characters and opens up more options.

[Ramsus]

I don't actually see anything wrong with Mechanics also being knowledge of how machines work. Otherwise every single engineer style character has to have good Precision and good Knowledge. Which actually makes the simple concept of say a blacksmith impossible (or at least unfeasible) as they'd need high numbers in three different stats but, would oddly only care about a very small number of the skill involved in two of those. In fact, the blacksmith doesn't actually care about any of the knowledge skills but, still would have to have high knowledge. That's not really a good design principle if it can be avoided.

[ZamuelNow]

@SparkImpulse: But Academics still covers History, plus the new name opens up the addition of modern knowledge and the capacity to research even more information.

Also, on the "Intuition" front, the thing that has to be noted is that "Perception" is action two very different skills in one. It's both the physical perception of noticing something as well as the mental intuition of realizing the significance or meaning of things - what 4e called "Insight"

it's like how Persuasion is Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate.

I've actually had some issue with the fact that Perception is two skills in one but that's a discussion for another thread.

Also, if you think heal does a good job of explaining what heal can and can't do, you might have it wrong. Heal doesn't let you give hit points to people, though it does allow you to cure serious ailments (though in many situations it seems like you'd have to do heal for knowing what to do and mechanics to do it.) However, heal is also generally used to determine medical knowledge - what created a wound, is this safe to eat, what kinds of organs does this creature have - and these things aren't exactly "healing"

That's a fair enough point but I think it should be spelled out in the skill description.  I had actually come up with an alternate description for it a while back:

Heal/Medicine:

And yes, Mechanics is a problem too - many seem to think it's a knowledge of machines, but it's actually just fine motor skills. We called it mechanics because it's generally used to fiddle with machines, but often a player might create an engineer who sunk everything into mechanics, thinking that will let them understand how engineering works - but that's a knowledge (any typically Arcana, in magi-tech settings) thing, mechanics just lets them tighten the screws accurately.

"Dexterity".  Because that's what it is, manual dexterity.  Had come up with an alternate description for it as well:

Mechanics/Dexterity:

I don't actually see anything wrong with Mechanics also being knowledge of how machines work. Otherwise every single engineer style character has to have good Precision and good Knowledge. Which actually makes the simple concept of say a blacksmith impossible (or at least unfeasible) as they'd need high numbers in three different stats but, would oddly only care about a very small number of the skill involved in two of those. In fact, the blacksmith doesn't actually care about any of the knowledge skills but, still would have to have high knowledge. That's not really a good design principle if it can be avoided.

Actually, I think a blacksmith is the type of applied trade that Freaky Knowledge should come into play.  They'd have high Mechanics, probably moderate/high Athletics, and FK in blacksmithing.

[Ramsus]

But if they didn't have high knowledge by Kindulas' answer, they wouldn't know how to do it (aside from the +5 bonus from FK which isn't that helpful when it only adds up to +10). And that really didn't address the more important issue of forcing every engineer type character to focus on the same two stats no matter how different their concepts were.

Edit: I'm not really sure why you have an issue with Perception being "two skills. Athletics is dozens of skills. So is Acrobatics. And History/Academics. And Heal/Medicine. And Streetwise (especially if you're having it double for Survival which there is no other skill to represent it). Or Persuasion. Basically all of the skills (aside from Arcana) basically are multiple different skillsets rolled into one for the sake of ease and convenience.

[Fury of the Tempest]

Hmmmm... I'm not going to have a super big argument or reason here. I'm just going to state, plainly. That I like Zamuel's suggestions/reasoning.

Change History into Academics, but leave Arcana as it is, (I just don't see magic being something a scholar would study without specialty), not too sure on changing mechanics into dexterity though...

[ZamuelNow]

LoganAura did start a topic about the skills and skill descriptions a while back. I'll admit that my opinions have shifted some since then (I'm backing off from Streetwise, increasing discussion about renaming History, etc). As far as Perception compared to other skills I'll first note that it's coming from a skewed perspective from another campaign in a different system. Plus, I don't see Athletics as two or more skills but rather a skill with a lot of breadth since being strong can be applied a variety of ways.

[Kindulas]

Problem is "Dexterity" is really what the entirety of Precision is. It's fine manipulation with your hands, specifically.

[Fury of the Tempest]

So yeah... the main thing that people want and seems plausible, is broadening history to academics.

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