Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:53 am

Nice post. Quite a comprehensive analysis.

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Post  Hayatecooper on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:46 am

Hmm
Didn't really think about it but you can get stuff like Steady Hooves with Magic can't you? But in terms of taking Focused Evo for five minutes with Magic... well you can do a lot of the same stuff with Pick of the litter(Or heck Highborn if you already have Pick).

Focused could work as a UT, but maybe it needs some form of pre-req, I know Philadelphus mentioned maybe linking it to Highborn. I mean heck, if Magecraft is 'balanced' cause it takes up two spots then Focused should be fine if it costs three slots AND your magic point.
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Post  Mind Gamer on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:49 am

I'd say you could avoid "five minutes of racial points" with making racial points only able to be spent at character creation, but that wrecks the point of trying to get evolution down the line.

Perhaps only allowing racial points to be spent during level ups? That way it's outside of when magic points can be spent?
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Post  Zarhon on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:02 am

A slight diversion from the topic at hand: Does anyone else consider the lvl10 talent of the Seer destiny to be... well, very underwhelming? It is a powerful ability in itself, but its potentially USELESS if your DM doesn't actually throw magical illusions at you, or uses non-magical disguises and tricks, or you don't bother activating it constantly every 5 seconds (cause if you don't use it, it ain't active, and it only lasts for 5 seconds).

There's also the consideration that the name "seer" should imply something to do with predicting the future, yet provides nothing of such (Detective destiny actually lets you gleam the future better than the seer does!).

Would it be too much to allow the seer an extra benefit for lvl10? For instance, making the True Sight constantly active (rather than needing activation every now and then), at-will use of the x-ray ability...

Or maybe even actual future-prediction (vague hints or puzzles as to what would happen), or upgraded scouting abilities (getting the dream-stride utility without having to fall asleep to use it...), or you can get a specific type of hint from the DM on how to act in the future, having a defined list of "future questions" you can ask and get a honest (and/or vague) answer about.

e.g.
"Objects that will help?" - "A fire extinguisher" (because of a fire trap or arsonist)
"Things to pay attention to?" - "A yellow door" (because it's trapped)
"Where should I go?" - "A place with rails and steel monstrosities" (train station)
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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:03 am

You could make it so that Focused Evolution can only be taken at character creation. I know it comes across as quite a limitation, but I think a decision about want Magic or not wanting Magic would be something made at character's creation.

That way, a companion can't take it (I think), and you can't give it to someone with Benevolent Genetics, and of course you can't take it more than once. Yes, your paying 1 racial point to get another 5, but your also giving up your magic points permanently. The only other ability the does that makes it impossible for you to get Nat 1's, so its a good trade off.

And like its said, you already need to pay a utility talent in order to take it if your playing as one of the default races. So your paying you paying your magic points, and an utility talent, which is more than enough.
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Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:06 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Magic Drain as a term only exists so that people can't take more than one (as not gaining a magic point would be a redundant sacrifice if you already have another ability with Magic Drain - making it extraordinarily overpowered). I get the parallel, but why would we need that for stuff that gives you extra magic points?
Situations such as Companion and/or Vile Villain's minions where you may or may not want them sitting on a ton of magic points and likewise mention not having magic drain. Rather than singling out individual talents by name, you restrict a category that you don't want to be used.
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Post  A1C Bronymous on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:33 pm

Zarhon wrote:A slight diversion from the topic at hand: Does anyone else consider the lvl10 talent of the Seer destiny to be... well, very underwhelming?
I do, along with pretty much all of the other ones. The only one that might be interesting is archlich, because I doubt it took them 2 pages to define something like "use x UT more than usual".
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Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:42 pm

Thinking more about the structure of Focused Evolution, I think both racials and utilities are wrong.  It makes the min-maxing a bit too obvious and seems a little too aside from the concept of its penalty--losing a Magic Point.  It would better to treat it as an outright replacement for MP as it is.  Essentially:

Element/Virtue of Power - Magic Drain
You do not gain and are unable to receive Magic Points.  Instead you gain an additional 4 racial trait points at character creation.

Closes a few loopholes in using an element alongside this ability, clarifies things (current FE wording means you actually can't benefit from Derp and Instant Party, theoretically Magic shouldn't be able to grab it either), and admittedly a mild nerf.  Still useful since people can grab some combo of Specialist, Overachiever, and/or Best of the Breed but it's not such a no brainer for some builds.


Something brought up in the Destiny Update's comment sidebars before being cleared out that I think is a valid question is: Why is Grandeur just +1 anyways?  I'm assuming part of that was creating it before the final parts of the no stacking rule were finalized but it seems to be a bit underpowered now.  Similar question with You’re All My Very Best Friends since allies have to spend a Magic Point.

Grandeur/Best Friends:
Grandeur (3)
Your race provides a +1 morale bonus to the skill checks of all allies that can see it.

You’re All My Very Best Friends
Whenever one of your allies spends a magic point to aid you on a skill check, they gain a +1 morale bonus to all skill checks for the rest of the day.
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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:31 pm

... ... ... A BIT of a nerf?

That is absolutely USELESS Zamuel!
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Post  sunbeam on Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:46 pm

Please, explain. All I see is that you get the same mechanical benefit, without the gain requiring any initial drain on your racial points or your utility talents. The only things you lose are your element, which you couldn't use for lack of a magic point anyways, and at least a few of the downright broken exploits that people have been pointing out.
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Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:50 pm

Well here's the question, what racials would people want to purchase with Focused Evolution in the first place?  I'm pretty sure the majority would be looking for flat stat boosts as opposed to anything else.  This is less powerful but far from useless, especial in campaigns where players are using custom builds anyway.  Moving it over as a pure replacement to your Element probably could allow it to be raised to 5 racial trait points but no clue on how that math works out.
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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:52 pm

1. You have less racial points.
2. You lose your element. Which can still be used via Spellchild.
3. There is only two broken combo's. One has already been patched, and the second one can be patched quickly.
4. Having an 'Element of Power' is a big no no. It has NOTHING to do with the Elements of Harmony.
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Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:55 pm

Personally I'd enjoy having the element system getting expanded with something like this. That does seem like a fair nerf to the thing to have it lock out one's element. Though I'd need to give 5 racial points. not 4... Don't get what's up with that.
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Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:13 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:4. Having an 'Element of Power' is a big no no. It has NOTHING to do with the Elements of Harmony.
In a way that was kind of the point. I have no qualms with changing the name. In the end, it's essentially an alternate system mechanic that's purely about "more stats" so this is a situation where flavor isn't a real concern.

As far as boosting it to 5, that's probably fine though obviously up to the devs. Lowered it since Lapis mentioned the original proposal was 4 points.
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Post  Ramsus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:52 pm

The problem with Focused Evolution isn't really the problems it's making right now. It's that it will continue to cause problems or force us to design things in ways that have to specifically avoid being abused by it. Within a couple months it'll probably have a half dozen changes that just say what it can't be combined with or force changes onto other things or cause us to completely drop ideas just because of what they would do in combination with it. No matter what, in the end it's going to be an ugly mess that constantly needs updating whenever something new is added to the system.
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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:40 pm

Everyone's making it a far bigger problem that it already is. Just making it so that it can only be taken on character creation, and you have no more problems, no abuseable loops, no broken combinations.

Just a simple, fair, well-balanced racial trait.
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Post  Ramsus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:51 pm

That's even worse. Now it'd have another special rule that punishes people for having different ideas than you? Whoopy! Where is this going to end? By the time you make up a counter for every problem people have with it, there will be a 30 item list of limits and restrictions on it.
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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:06 pm

Ramsus wrote:That's even worse. Now it'd have another special rule that punishes people for having different ideas than you? Whoopy! Where is this going to end? By the time you make up a counter for every problem people have with it, there will be a 30 item list of limits and restrictions on it.
... Uh... Its ONE rule.

ONE.

And its not likes it world-ending. It actually makes more sense then suddenly gaining it mid-game. Its like how Spellchild says you assign it during character creation, and how Specialist has you start on 3 attribute points on character creation.

Its nothing new. Its nothing game-ending, and blocks abuse.

Problems solved.
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Post  Ramsus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:09 pm

That doesn't solve the problems of the ability at all. That solves on problem. And it's not even a solution. That solution causes problems for anyone who thinks of any reason why they would gain it past character creation. And it takes no effort at all to think of a scenario for that.
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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:16 pm

But if you can't gain it past character select, then the problems are solved. And that's the only real problem it has. Now, it can no longer be abused by temporary getting 5 racial attributes.

If you so wise and mighty, knowing some obvious problems that I'm not seeing, and how my suggestion makes things worse and not better. Why don't you explain things to your humble inferior?
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Post  Ramsus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:46 pm

I already explained. The obvious problem is that it will lead to an endless amount of future problems and re-tooling and just having to not add other things to the system that would only end up breaking this single feature. If you added those ideas anyway, the list of restrictions and limitations would just keep growing.

Your "solution" only fixes a couple of the current issues and adds another thing to it's list of things it and only it specifically does that nobody wants anything in the system to have to do. Really, if something is only balanced if you can only get it when you create your character, it really shouldn't be in the system at all.
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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:55 pm

Your explaining nothing, what your saying makes absolutely no sense.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:12 pm

Zamuel, your suggestion of making an Element/Virtue that has the Magic Drain mechanic... That a beautifully elegant fix to the problem of Magic Drain gameplay elements giving you a nigh-useless Virtue. I have to say, if we're going to do Magic Drain anywhere - putting it as a virtue is an awesome solution.

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Post  Kindulas on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:12 pm

A better band-aid to FE is to just have it say that the racial points gained can't be allocated mid-session. However, Ramsus's point stands - we can fix the problems we see now, but it seems like new ones will just crop up for this thing


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Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:15 pm

Kindulas wrote:but it seems like new ones will just crop up for this thing
Can someone explain to me what possible problems we might have here? Companions can't take it without derp and they can't take another companion. You can't use it to gain racial points mid-session. So, what possible problems could arrise?

None, that's what! All its flaws are fixed.

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