Combat Talents

Philadelphus wrote:Just curious, how would temporary hit points be removed through "non-damage effects"? By being overwritten by other temporary hit points?

You take the highest value, last I checked. So applying 5 temporary hit points to someone with 8 will do nothing, but the reverse will bump their total up to 8.

Well, the handbook doesn't officially say (I just checked), but that would make sense I guess. So my question still stands: what kind of "non-damage effects" are there to remove temporary hit points?

Hmmm, a move where you sacrifice temporary hit points to gain some other advantage (actual hit points, PiPs, etc.) could be interesting.

Videocrazy wrote:1) I noted the exclusion of the word "all". That would indicate you get to choose how many hit points you sacrifice, and thus which move activates.

There's still no real good reason for this move to be a free action, instead of a standard one. PiP-gaining moves are strong, and the ability to add that at any time is pretty broken. For example, this and Vitality Veil. With the first variant, you get a net gain of 4 PiPs with no downside, unlike moves such as Psychic Surge. With the second variant, a net gain of 6 PiPs.

1) Thats a typo. Editing. You sacrifice all of them.

2) Hm, yeah, that's a pretty powerful combo. The problem is that the move can't be used to gain PiPs if nobody has temp hit points, and enemies can make it even further useless by taking them away with damage. On the other hand, a talent like the veil would give a rather large amount of PiPs through comboing. How about these edits then?

[-2] Vitality Veil
Choose an effect:
- Grant 12 temporary hit points to yourself or an ally.
- Sacrifice all the temporary hit points of yourself or an ally (with permission) at once, to heal them for the same amount. If you sacrifice/Heal exactly 8, 10 or 12 hit points, flip a coin to see if it triggers an appropriate special move.

[+X] Power Diffusion - Standard/Free
Choose one of the two effect, as a standard action:
- Sacrifice all of your current temporary hit points to gain half that value in PiPs (Rounded up), up to a maximum of +4 PiPs.
- Sacrifice all of an allies temporary hit points (with their permission) to give them half that value in PiPs (Rounded up), up to a maximum of +3 PiPs.
In addition, you may perform the following as a free action, once per round:
- Deal either 8 or 10 damage to yourself, granting an equal amount of temporary hit points to yourself, or half that value to an ally, and 1 PiP.

The temp hit point sacrifice is a standard and has a maximum limit, so that should prevent abuse. Enemies dealing damage should serve as a "balancer".

The self-damage ability allows it be combo'd with the standard effect (at the cost of hit points). If you use it to gain PiPs, you deal 8 damage to yourself and gain 5 PiPs, plus skip a turn.

You can also use that to give an ally 4/5 temporary hit points (combat utility once per round, at the cost of damage), then pair it with a standard to give them 2/3 PiPs.

Combo'd with the veil you'd be using up 2 pips to get a shield, then wait a turn, allowing enemies to reduce it. If the shield is undamaged by the enemies in the meantime (best case scenario), you could then sacrifice it to give yourself +4 PiPs (+2 net gain), or give an ally up to +5 PiPs (So -2 PiPs, 2 turns used, risking enemy attack).

Just curious, how would temporary hit points be removed through "non-damage effects"? By being overwritten by other temporary hit points?

Nah, overwriting with extra temporary hit points doesn't count as removal.

I just added that line as a contingency, in case DMs use a "nullify" type combat ability to remove such defenses, or some future combat skill is developed, or to prevent an effect triggering from "Sacrificing".

Philadelphus wrote:Well, the handbook doesn't officially say (I just checked), but that would make sense I guess. So my question still stands: what kind of "non-damage effects" are there to remove temporary hit points?

Sacrificing them for PiPs would be one, or transferring them, etc...

I had a random idea for a talent.

[-x*]Unbridled Assault
Do y*d12 damage to all combatants (Enemies, Allies, Self).

*No idea what to put for these- stupid high or stupid low. I Prefer high, say, -6 pips, 3d12?

Stupid low and stupid high.

3d12 and -2

LoganAura wrote:Stupid low and stupid high.

3d12 and -2

Til you roll 10+ on all three dice and KO your whole party on the first turn. Sounds pretty fun, actually.

Bronymous wrote:I had a random idea for a talent.

[-x*]Unbridled Assault
Do y*d12 damage to all combatants (Enemies, Allies, Self).

*No idea what to put for these- stupid high or stupid low. I Prefer high, say, -6 pips, 3d12?

I like the idea a lot. For figuring out the numbers, imagine the effects in an actual combat and what role you want the combat talent to play. Should it function as an expensive, "EVERYTHING DIES!" Ability, or do you want it to be a more economical ability that lets players do some damage to every combatant at low cost. Making it a small cost with high damage would be dangerous, as players would be able to pull the doomsday trigger at basically any time, which would alter the dynamics of combat and possibly frustrate other team members a lot. And making it high cost for low damage would mean it was probably never taken.

Also, you might want to consider if you want this ability to be a crit-fisher. That is, like Thunderstorm, its main purpose might be to let the player roll a lot of dice in the hopes of getting a critical. In that case, you'd want an excuse to roll lots of dice - whether making it a high damage talent or doing something akin to Thunderstorm and halving the resulting damage dealt.

Basically, imagine what role you want the combat talent to serve. What's it being designed for? What type of player and when would be a good idea to use it? Then just make the talent's effect fit that use. You can also make multiple versions of the talent to fill different roles.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I like the idea a lot. For figuring out the numbers, imagine the effects in an actual combat and what role you want the combat talent to play. Should it function as an expensive, "EVERYTHING DIES!" Ability, or do you want it to be a more economical ability that lets players do some damage to every combatant at low cost. Making it a small cost with high damage would be dangerous, as players would be able to pull the doomsday trigger at basically any time, which would alter the dynamics of combat and possibly frustrate other team members a lot. And making it high cost for low damage would mean it was probably never taken.

Also, you might want to consider if you want this ability to be a crit-fisher. That is, like Thunderstorm, its main purpose might be to let the player roll a lot of dice in the hopes of getting a critical. In that case, you'd want an excuse to roll lots of dice - whether making it a high damage talent or doing something akin to Thunderstorm and halving the resulting damage dealt.

Basically, imagine what role you want the combat talent to serve. What's it being designed for? What type of player and when would be a good idea to use it? Then just make the talent's effect fit that use. You can also make multiple versions of the talent to fill different roles.

I had been thinking that, which is kinda why I left it open for discussion. I wasn't sure which of those options to go for. If I had to pick, specifically,

[-9]Unbridled Assault
Do 4d12 damage to all combatants (Enemies, Allies, Self).

So not as overly powerful as, say, It's Over, but it has 4 chances to roll a Crit, it can be used round 3-4, depending on how you work your PiPs, and it is a legitimate threat to everyone- which may also act as a deterrent to use it. Makes things interesting.

Dam that attack sounds badass.

I think it needs to be a lower PiP cost if it targets everyone. I'm not exactly Mr. Balancepants or anything, but 9 seems like too much. -7 or -6, maybe?

...or, if you're willing to raise the cost to -10 or -11, you could remove the targeting self and/or allies.

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:I think it needs to be a lower PiP cost if it targets everyone. I'm not exactly Mr. Balancepants or anything, but 9 seems like too much. -7 or -6, maybe?

...or, if you're willing to raise the cost to -10 or -11, you could remove the targeting self and/or allies.

Did you read how MUCH power it has? I mean it's good as is I'd say.

Xel Unknown wrote:

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:I think it needs to be a lower PiP cost if it targets everyone. I'm not exactly Mr. Balancepants or anything, but 9 seems like too much. -7 or -6, maybe?

...or, if you're willing to raise the cost to -10 or -11, you could remove the targeting self and/or allies.

Did you read how MUCH power it has? I mean it's good as is I'd say.

Issue is, a huge [-X] ability that is as likely to hurt you as your opponent is hard to justify using when you could use so many other big abilities that are big bonuses.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Issue is, a huge [-X] ability that is as likely to hurt you as your opponent is hard to justify using when you could use so many other big abilities that are big bonuses.

Alright I see your point...

I picked 9 specifically because you can have 8 pips by the beginning of your second turn, and this is too much of a last resort to be used on round 2. The player should have to think about when to use it- its not something that you just pull whenever, its for when your options have run low and you have to win now. And the decision is much easier when you've already lost one or two party members.

Or, to put it another way.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, unfortunately.

Strong criticism after the spoiler, assuming you want to see it.

Spoiler:

AProcrastinatingWriter's last argument makes sense. I could see a, "shoot everything equally" talent being taken, some builds will be able to make use of it (seen those traits that give your allies resistance to your attacks and such?) but a super-high-cost attack? Not so much. Either needs to be economical, like high damage for its pip cost - probably only [-1], [-2] or -[3] - or serve another purpose (thunderstorm can target everyone equally, but it's great when you need to roll a 10 or make a last-ditch effort, while that one [+3] ability where you hurt yourself and maybe your opponent is good because it lets you have a shot of dealing decent damage on a [+3] ability.

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:With a bit of teamwork, it's just as easy to give somepony +9 PiPs instead of +8 (Energize FTW!). And considering the whole game is based on teamwork...well, you see where this heads. If somepony really wants to set this bomb off round two, I don't think that extra PiP is going to stop them. Especially with certain traits and items potentially coming out...

"Based on teamwork" it may be, but I have yet to play a session in two different campaigns where the team actually worked together- the most I've ever seen is "This attack will knock him out, so I use <Insert Interrupt Attack Here> to save him". The point of this was, originally, have a decently powerful attack that, while lighter on the cost side, was dangerous to use. The potential damage was supposed to appeal to the player, but the danger to himself and the party would insure that they used it wisely- or, at least, as wisely as any given Player can use something. Maybe they use it first round, and sentence the party to failure because they can no longer stand up to any attacks; maybe they wait too long, and risk defeating themselves.

It all comes down to how the player chooses to play. If they can live with dealing a lot of damage despite the risk, then they'll do it one way or another.

You also forget an important detail: Unconscious targets are still viable to be attacked and the ability would target them. If that ability deals between 15 and 30 damage to someone unconscious, you've pretty much knocked them out of the battle for good (something a minor heal would have instantly prevented). And if it deals 30 or more damage while somepony is unconscious, you've just effectively KILLED that teammate. If this ability was in an MMO-game, griefers would use it, as it can only cause grief.

My suggestions on how to augment this ability (don't use all of em though):

- Get rid of the ally damage (affecting only you) and prevent it from killing or defeating you (KO'ing is an option, though).

- Make it unable to hit/affect unconscious/comatose targets.

- Make it unable to defeat/kill conscious targets.

- Add a coin toss for each ally/self, to determine if that ally gets hit, followed by another to see if the damage is halved (this should nullify most of the negative aspects, assuming you aren't plagued by horrible luck).

- You choose two allies (other than yourself) that won't get hit by it.

- Stun the enemies for a round or two, so they can't counterattack and finish you off easily.

Zarhon wrote:- Make it unable to hit/affect unconscious/comatose targets.

This. Seems easiest to implement and will keep you from becoming the group pariah. Maybe.

[0] Thriller - Immediate reaction
Trigger: You are unconscious, or would be knocked unconscious
Effect: Dominate all enemies for up to two rounds (save ends). When revived, your next PiP boosting ability will gain you no PiPs. You cannot trigger this ability again while any enemy is still dominated.

[-9] Horn/Wing/Back Rub
Target yourself or an ally. Target is weakened for one round, but may perform a special move of their choice.

[-4] Marshmallow Blood / Bleed Jelly - Immediate Reaction
Trigger: You are dealt damage from an enemy.
Effect: Allies gain regeneration X for two rounds, where X is half the damage you took.

[-4] Look into my eyes - Immediate reaction
Trigger: An enemy successfully blinds you, weakens you, or causes you to harm yourself or an ally.
Effect: Triggering enemy is dominated for one round.

and two variants:

A) [-3] Trolling - Immediate reaction
Trigger: You are dealt damage from an enemy.
Effect: Gain regeneration X for two rounds, where X is half of the damage you took.

B) [-3] Trolling - Immediate reaction
Trigger: You are dealt damage from an enemy.
Effect: Gain regeneration X for two rounds, where X is half of the damage you took. If knocked unconscious before the regeneration effect ended, you regain X health on your next turn.

Zarhon wrote:[0] Thriller - Immediate reaction
Trigger: You are unconscious, or would be knocked unconscious
Effect: Dominate all enemies for up to two rounds (save ends). When revived, your next PiP boosting ability will gain you no PiPs. You cannot trigger this ability again while any enemy is still dominated.

This is a very funny idea, and I quite like it. Seems like it'd be fun to have.

Zarhon wrote:[-9] Horn/Wing/Back Rub
Target yourself or an ally. Target is weakened for one round, but may perform a special move of their choice.

I'm not totally sure what this one's effect really does, does it like let the ally do one attack without paying pip cost? Or does it let the ally do a crit effect for an talent roll regardless of what the roll is?

Zarhon wrote:[-4] Marshmallow Blood / Bleed Jelly - Immediate Reaction
Trigger: You are dealt damage from an enemy.
Effect: Allies gain regeneration X for two rounds, where X is half the damage you took.

A Nice idea for a skill. I hope it gets added and/or the Trolling version of this.

Zarhon wrote:[-4] Look into my eyes - Immediate reaction
Trigger: An enemy successfully blinds you, weakens you, or causes you to harm yourself or an ally.
Effect: Triggering enemy is dominated for one round.

Not bad, not bad... I wouldn't used it myself, but I think this one is totally balanced.

Zarhon wrote:and two variants:

A) [-3] Trolling - Immediate reaction
Trigger: You are dealt damage from an enemy.
Effect: Gain regeneration X for two rounds, where X is half of the damage you took.

B) [-3] Trolling - Immediate reaction
Trigger: You are dealt damage from an enemy.
Effect: Gain regeneration X for two rounds, where X is half of the damage you took. If knocked unconscious before the regeneration effect ended, you regain X health on your next turn.

The second version sounds more fitting to me... And would make more unique then the other talent suggested higher up.

Xel Unknown wrote:

Zarhon wrote:[-9] Horn/Wing/Back Rub
Target yourself or an ally. Target is weakened for one round, but may perform a special move of their choice.

I'm not totally sure what this one's effect really does, does it like let the ally do one attack without paying pip cost? Or does it let the ally do a crit effect for an talent roll regardless of what the roll is?

I would assume it lets the target perform a Special Move.

Like Derpy's Lightning or Healer's Grace.

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:

Xel Unknown wrote:

Zarhon wrote:[-9] Horn/Wing/Back Rub
Target yourself or an ally. Target is weakened for one round, but may perform a special move of their choice.

I'm not totally sure what this one's effect really does, does it like let the ally do one attack without paying pip cost? Or does it let the ally do a crit effect for an talent roll regardless of what the roll is?

I would assume it lets the target perform a Special Move.

Like Derpy's Lightning or Healer's Grace.

I think it does that too... Just the wording strikes me as a bit vague.

Xel Unknown wrote:

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:

Xel Unknown wrote:

Zarhon wrote:[-9] Horn/Wing/Back Rub
Target yourself or an ally. Target is weakened for one round, but may perform a special move of their choice.

I'm not totally sure what this one's effect really does, does it like let the ally do one attack without paying pip cost? Or does it let the ally do a crit effect for an talent roll regardless of what the roll is?

I would assume it lets the target perform a Special Move.

Like Derpy's Lightning or Healer's Grace.

I think it does that too... Just the wording strikes me as a bit vague.

I don't see what's vague. It says "Special Move" and all...

LoganAura wrote:I don't see what's vague. It says "Special Move" and all...

Then I guess it's just me... >.>

Edit: It's the "of their choice" line that's confusing me I guess.