Re: Combat Talents

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:24 pm

Okay, [0] It should be.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:27 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:Guess we could have something like...

[+X] Energy Drain
Drain 1d4 PiP's from target creature.

So... Wouldn't that be infinite pips? [+X] means you can choose a number and gain that many pips.
I agree, I think it'd be smarter to more have it be a [0] pip talent so it's clear that you're getting the pips form the target creature.

That makes a lot of sense. Of course, this would still be overpowered. After all, that's 2.5 pips on average gained, nearly as much as a +3 power (which is supposed to represent nearly skipping your turn to stock up on pips) while punishing the enemy harshly. Imagine if a group of 4 players spammed that on a solo monster every round. Poor creature wouldn't have a chance.

Xel Unknown Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:32 pm

Maybe the changes needed would downgrade it to taking 1d4-1 pips or make it like 1d4-2 pips it takes that way we'd be adding the risk of it GIVING the Monster one pip could make it balanced? Also we could make it only usable once per round to make it balanced?

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:37 pm

Or just have you drain 1 or 2 Pip's... and say it can't be used on the same monster more then once every rounds.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:43 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Or just have you drain 1 or 2 Pip's... and say it can't be used on the same monster more then once every rounds.

'

The whole, "can't be used on the same monster" thing is kind of a clunky way to solve the power. I'd rather we figured out a way to balance it without that. It would certainly work... Just not as elegant as I'd like.

I'm more interested in the whole, "Get a bonus while you have more than X pips" thing. Also, upkeep costs (you get X benefit as long as you pay Y pips each turn)

Xel Unknown Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:47 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:The whole, "can't be used on the same monster" thing is kind of a clunky way to solve the power. I'd rather we figured out a way to balance it without that. It would certainly work... Just not as elegant as I'd like.

I'm more interested in the whole, "Get a bonus while you have more than X pips" thing. Also, upkeep costs (you get X benefit as long as you pay Y pips each turn)

And your thoughts about my suggestion to balance the talent? Changing it's power to either 1d4-1 or 1d4-2? One turns it form 0-3 pip gain and the other adds the risk of giving the monster a pip and only a 50% chance of getting pips from the move...

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:07 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:The whole, "can't be used on the same monster" thing is kind of a clunky way to solve the power. I'd rather we figured out a way to balance it without that. It would certainly work... Just not as elegant as I'd like.

I'm more interested in the whole, "Get a bonus while you have more than X pips" thing. Also, upkeep costs (you get X benefit as long as you pay Y pips each turn)
And your thoughts about my suggestion to balance the talent? Changing it's power to either 1d4-1 or 1d4-2? One turns it form 0-3 pip gain and the other adds the risk of giving the monster a pip and only a 50% chance of getting pips from the move...

The real issue is the pip stealing being teamed up by between multiple players. Also, pip stealing kind of messes with the game math - as creatures are built with a clear idea as to how often they can use their moves. Anything that messes with game math needs to be overcosted to ensure that it doesn't happen too often. The changes you're talking about address the game balance issues to a degree, but also don't make the talent very exciting. So you're solving one problem to a degree, but causing a new one (hard to get excited about stealing 1d4-2 pips).

Pip-draining is very difficult to make for these reasons. It's why I haven't done much of it in the game. Perhaps make it a conditional talent, such as a reaction to you doing something awesome (like activating a special, or dealing 8+ damage to the target with one attack). That way it can't be spammed and is still cool.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:09 pm

I guess that is a bit clunky...

upkeep...

[0] Shadow Clone Jutsu!
Take 2 stranded actions per turn. At the end of the turn, you lose 4 PiPs

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Pip-draining is very difficult to make for these reasons. It's why I haven't done much of it in the game. Perhaps make it a conditional talent, such as a reaction to you doing something awesome (like activating a special, or dealing 8+ damage to the target with one attack). That way it can't be spammed and is still cool.

Having a PiP-draining special is cool!

AProcrastinatingWriter Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:21 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
[0] Shadow Clone Jutsu!
Take 2 stranded actions per turn. At the end of the turn, you lose 4 PiPs

Heavy criticism of this move in the spoiler below. You have been warned.

Spoiler:

Xel Unknown Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:27 pm

I'd suggest adding "end of each round you lose 4 pips if you want to keep the Shadow Clone." If I'm reading how it works right.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:28 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
[0] Shadow Clone Jutsu!
Take 2 stranded actions per turn. At the end of the turn, you lose 4 PiPs

An interesting idea. I think it could definitely be played with. Here's a quick reworking of it to make it work a bit more as you probably intended.

[0] Shadow Clone Jutsu!
For the rest of the battle or until you fall unconscious, you may take 2 stranded actions on your turn instead of 1. At the end of each of your turns, you must pay 4 pips. If you do not, this effect ends.

It still could use rewording, but that sounds more like what you're going for.

**LoganAura** Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Ideas for the pip cost thing.
Regen 2 when over X pips
Resist 2 when over X pips
Deal 1d4 bonus when UNDER X pips
Ally cannot be targeted while OVER (Rather high) pips.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:33 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:
[0] Shadow Clone Jutsu!
Take 2 stranded actions per turn. At the end of the turn, you lose 4 PiPs

An interesting idea. I think it could definitely be played with. Here's a quick reworking of it to make it work a bit more as you probably intended.

[0] Shadow Clone Jutsu!
For the rest of the battle or until you fall unconscious, you may take 2 stranded actions on your turn instead of 1. At the end of each of your turns, you must pay 4 pips. If you do not, this effect ends.

It still could use rewording, but that sounds more like what you're going for.

How about this?

[0] Shadow Clone Jutsu!

During each of your turns, gain an extra stranded action. Upkeep: 4 PiP's. If the Upkeep cannot be payed, you lose the effect of Shadow Clone Jutsu.

Also is it me, or has my suggestions given a lot more suggestions to this thread?

Xel Unknown Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:35 pm

I don't think it's just you Fury, you've been a very helpful spark for ideas and stuff.

**LoganAura** Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:37 pm

Also: Note to Fury-
The names of your combat talent ideas could use a little tweaking. I like most of the Shinigami ones, and the Shadow Clone Jutsu is AWESOME- but maybe you could change the names to be a bit more subtle references? Like this is an idea of mine. The name is a reference to an anime I like.
[-6] Unlock my heart!
You may use ANY combat talent you have, not just ones brought into battle.
So a bit of a tweak with the name, and
[-6] Unlocked Potential
It still has the reference, but it's a lot more subtle! Taking off Jutsu is one thing, like Writer said, and for the Shinigami ones changing the name of the class to Grim and altering the names a bit could help dan not get hammered in the face by lawsuits XD

That kind of thing happens. One person sparked the Races in the comments of FiD for example.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:39 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:I don't think it's just you Fury, you've been a very helpful spark for ideas and stuff.

Absolutely. Love it.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:44 pm

Thank you!

... And other people can make the name changes. The ideas are coming from the references after all...

AProcrastinatingWriter Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:45 pm

Has Fury sparked off a lot of new suggestions?

Yes and no. I mean, yeah there are a lot more suggestions in the thread because you've got some good ideas but the sentence structure there kind of implies "man there sure is a lot more posting of suggestions now that I've spoken up" and, unfortunately, it's only been you. Not that that's your fault - by all accounts, now that you've spoken up this is an excellent time to do so, why is no one else contributing ideas?! Razz

And hey, like I've said, you have made a LOT of suggestions, and that's a great thing - we can always use more stuff in our books! So keep at it - I'm sure you've got some spark of brilliance or another in that head of yours that nobody else here is ever going to come up with. sunny

...in fact, I think I'm gonna take my own advice for a second here.

[-3] Waterspout - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - You would be damaged by an attack that targets yourself and at least one ally.
Effect: Deal 1d10 damage to triggering creature and 1d6 damage to adjacent creatures. In addition, flip a coin. On a result of heads, the triggering enemy is stunned.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:47 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Thank you!

... And other people can make the name changes. The ideas are coming from the references after all...

Sure thing. And yeah, I support this. Don't worry about the names right away. I can always swap em later, and they're great for getting the ideas across =).

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:00 pm

As my first non-combat related Destiny goes up, time for more combat talents!

[-4] Combo Finish!
Deal Xd8 damage to target enemy. X being equal to the number of status effects on target enemy.

[0] REVENGE!
Deal damage to target enemy equal to 1/2 of health lost.

[0] Limit Break
This ability can only be used if your health is 5 or lower. Deal Xd12 damage to any number of enemies. X's total cannot exceed 5.

**LoganAura** Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:08 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:As my first non-combat related Destiny goes up, time for more combat talents!

[-4] Combo Finish!
Deal Xd8 damage to target enemy. X being equal to the number of save-ends on target enemy.

[0] REVENGE! Immediate Reaction
Trigger: Damage is dealt to you by an enemy.
Effect: Deal 1/2 of that damage to the attacking enemy.

[0] Limit Break
This ability can only be used if your health is 5 or lower. Deal Xd12 damage to any number of enemies where X is your HP.

Tweaked a bit if you don't mind including terms and stuff... Revenge also would need to have a -pip with how much damage it could give. -3?

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:11 pm

You have revenge wrong. If you have taken 4 damage in the battle, it allows you to do 2 damage to the enemy. 10 damage taken, 5 damage dealt.

... Yeah it probably should have a PiP cost either way.

**LoganAura** Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:19 pm

In battle?

Yeah that is totally broken then. Someone could have up to 44 damage in battle with the right traits (30 hp to -14 iirc), not counting being brought back to life multiple times or even being healed once. 22 for a 0 pip skill is way too much that's like 5-6 d8 since the average is about 3.5. I think the way I put it is a bit more balanced.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:37 pm

... I should of made it clearer.

If you have 30 health no damage is done. 26 health, 2 damage done. 16 health. 7 damage done. -14 health. 22 damage done.

Get it now?

SilentBelle Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:13 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:As my first non-combat related Destiny goes up, time for more combat talents!

[-4] Combo Finish!
Deal Xd8 damage to target enemy. X being equal to the number of status effects on target enemy.

[0] REVENGE!
Deal damage to target enemy equal to 1/2 of health lost.

[0] Limit Break
This ability can only be used if your health is 5 or lower. Deal Xd12 damage to any number of enemies. X's total cannot exceed 5.

Well Combo Finish! could definitely have it's pip cost marched up to maybe +1 or so. I mean, do you know how hard it is to stack a bunch of status ailments on a single enemy. It takes a great deal of teamwork to build it up to 3 or so.

Revenge should be rephrased to: "Deal damage to target enemy equal to 15 - (1/2 of your current HP rounded up)"
But I personally don't like the move that much. I hold a disdain for moves that can't potentially activate a special. I think what would work better to make it something like this:

[-1] Revenge
Deal target enemy Xd12 damage. For every 9 hit points missing from your total, this move does 1d10 damage.

I like Limit Break, but it would need to raise the cost to 2 pips to use, maybe 3.

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