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Kindulas wrote:

Xel Unknown wrote:For the final week of submissions:

[+2] Rocket Punch - Standard Attack
Pay 4 HP. Deal 2d6 damage to target creature.

&

[+3] Bloody Knuckles - Standard Attack
Pay 2d4 HP and deal damage equal to HP paid to target creature.

You know, this reminds me of my idea
[+1] Blood Arrow - Standard
Deal 2d8 damage to target creature and you lose that much hp

But... I think these concepts would be best at +2, since we already have Blood Slash, but it seems more attractive if the "pay life for above the curve damage" came with more than the +1 pip gain

In theory I balanced the idea when compared to Supercharge...

Supercharge:
1 - 8 self damage, which can be resisted, has a 50% chance of dealing 1 -10 damage to an enemy. And if you want you can bypass the self-damage if you are blinded. (also if your blinded and do still get hurt by Supercharge, you still feel like you'll get better odds on the second coin flip.)

Bloody Knuckles:
2 - 8 loss of life to self, IE this can't be resisted at all, 100% dealing damage to an enemy. AND CAN'T CRIT.. Which is a drawback in my book. (Or at least in the maths should count as one.) Also unlike Supercharge if your blinded with this talent it feels like a bad thing...

But I guess you got a point with Bloody Knuckles outclassing Blood Slash a little too well... So then, I'd love to first try to see opens to nerf Bloody Knuckles in ways other then turning it from a +2... Maybe having a coin flip that if loss the damage it cut in half?

Like this:
[+3] Bloody Knuckles - Standard Attack
Flip a coin, if you lose, you are considered weakened till the end of your turn. Then Pay 2d4 HP and deal damage equal to HP paid to target creature.

Kindulas wrote:Chameleon Skin... I am super torn about this. One one hand, it's super flavorful as a racial. It feels like we've got to have it. But mechanically... it's so much of a min-maxy "take me for stealth!" racial. The mechanics don't fit for the system, but the flavor can't be anything else...

Well as far as flavor goes, the main thing about Chameleon Skin is that you can change your skin/hair color, so its probable main uses are:
- Blending into surrounding for stealth or avoidance purposes.
- Imitation, or quick, easy, simple disguises.
- Justifying a silly-colored pony or creature or character, or some lizard-like characters.
- Fashion! Or wicked tattoos! Or body art!
- Copying/mimicking patterns/runes/inscriptions/pictures (instead of writing them down)
- Literal "body sign language".

As far as "min-maxyness" goes, I don't think it's much of an issue - mostly because the system is already chock-full of things that let you min-max a stealth God: Stealth Mode (direct invisibility, and yet mechanically all it gives is a +10 to a roll), "The Unseen" destiny, Freaky Knowledge ("Blending into surrounding", "camouflage"), Untraceable... The racial is in fact a rather sub-par method of getting decent stealth (longer "prep time" for the color change, lower "bonus", forces you to be immobile, costs a lot more - it's main saving grace is that it's at will).

One method of "altering" the stealth "value" this racial would have is to make it act similar to a "Cloud Sculpture" - acting as legit concealment from a range, but becoming obvious as one gets closer. The problem this change would have, however, is that it's hideously impractical/unreliable/situational for actual use then (a problem Cloud Sculpture has too, but Chameleon would have it worse due to not having the option of floating to the required distances).

As far as the waterborn branching goes, how about this for the alternative, non-water-shooting version?

Shoo Be Doo:

Zarhon wrote:

Kindulas wrote:Chameleon Skin... I am super torn about this. One one hand, it's super flavorful as a racial. It feels like we've got to have it. But mechanically... it's so much of a min-maxy "take me for stealth!" racial. The mechanics don't fit for the system, but the flavor can't be anything else...

Well as far as flavor goes, the main thing about Chameleon Skin is that you can change your skin/hair color, so its probable main uses are:
- Blending into surrounding for stealth or avoidance purposes.
- Imitation, or quick, easy, simple disguises.
- Justifying a silly-colored pony or creature or character, or some lizard-like characters.
- Fashion! Or wicked tattoos! Or body art!
- Copying/mimicking patterns/runes/inscriptions/pictures (instead of writing them down)
- Literal "body sign language".

As far as "min-maxyness" goes, I don't think it's much of an issue - mostly because the system is already chock-full of things that let you min-max a stealth God: Stealth Mode (direct invisibility, and yet mechanically all it gives is a +10 to a roll), "The Unseen" destiny, Freaky Knowledge ("Blending into surrounding", "camouflage"), Untraceable... The racial is in fact a rather sub-par method of getting decent stealth (longer "prep time" for the color change, lower "bonus", forces you to be immobile, costs a lot more - it's main saving grace is that it's at will).

One method of "altering" the stealth "value" this racial would have is to make it act similar to a "Cloud Sculpture" - acting as legit concealment from a range, but becoming obvious as one gets closer. The problem this change would have, however, is that it's hideously impractical/unreliable/situational for actual use then (a problem Cloud Sculpture has too, but Chameleon would have it worse due to not having the option of floating to the required distances).

As far as the waterborn branching goes, how about this for the alternative, non-water-shooting version?

Shoo Be Doo:

But it goes against the principal that a racial ability is effectively giving a flat bonus to an entire skill... though you're right, there's the prep time and the immobility... but still, my instincts say it's problematic, but I really want it to work.

As for the water thing... why does it "reduce the DC" and not give a bonus? I like your flavor examples too... though actually, the ally-help defeats the purpose of being just flavored for "being an aquatic creature"

DC reduction I put because "automatically succeeds" is probably too powerful (or easy to abuse) if applied to everything swimming-based, and flat bonuses seem to be something that's trying to be avoided for racials, or generally problematic.

The ally help can be changed (or re-flavored) to "you can ferry an ally through water" and "you can prevent them from drowning" (limits may or may not apply, but it should be made with DMs who want to make full-party underwater adventures in mind, or general "underwater group exploration" quests not being delegated to the underwater player, or creating a "Decker" problem) - it's plausible for a aquatic creature, and lets people act the "friendly shipwreck-rescuer mer-creature" archetype.

If the chameleon thing giving a bonus seems iffy, could make it to work like mimicry, perhaps (as in, "you do that and that" without rolls or mechanics directly applied, and the DM determines how good it is by implication). Problem with that, however, is that then the racial may be over/under-priced or over/under-powered, depending on how the DM sets DCs or sees the ability's "roll power" (e.g. between DMs it might be as high as a +10-15 , or as low as a +2/3 situational modifier).

Zarhon wrote:DC reduction I put because "automatically succeeds" is probably too powerful (or easy to abuse) if applied to everything swimming-based, and flat bonuses seem to be something that's trying to be avoided for racials, or generally problematic.

The ally help can be changed (or re-flavored) to "you can ferry an ally through water" and "you can prevent them from drowning" (limits may or may not apply, but it should be made with DMs who want to make full-party underwater adventures in mind, or general "underwater group exploration" quests not being delegated to the underwater player, or creating a "Decker" problem) - it's plausible for a aquatic creature, and lets people act the "friendly shipwreck-rescuer mer-creature" archetype.

If the chameleon thing giving a bonus seems iffy, could make it to work like mimicry, perhaps (as in, "you do that and that" without rolls or mechanics directly applied, and the DM determines how good it is by implication). Problem with that, however, is that then the racial may be over/under-priced or over/under-powered, depending on how the DM sets DCs or sees the ability's "roll power" (e.g. between DMs it might be as high as a +10-15 , or as low as a +2/3 situational modifier).

There's not actually a difference between giving you a bonus and lowering the DC by an equal amount. Racials, I think, can give skill bonuses so long as they are a freaky-knowledge esque subset, not an entire skill. Swimming would be fine.

But yeah, Chameleon is too hard to just leave open to interpretation. Mimicry and spider climb are things that probably don't need a bonus, they just happen, but Chameleon screams for the need of some kind of not-auto-success-bonus-to-hiding, so we'd need to tell people what that is.

Hmmm... Perhaps a solution for chameleon, then, would be to have it act on "quality" rules similar to "Fabricate"? That is, the camuoflage (and bonuses to hiding gained from such) level of detail, realism, and general quality compared to surroundings is determined via a skill check, which you determine when you take the racial (like with weather-crafting). Flavor may or may not apply to allow all skill checks, or just a few, such as:
- perception (differentiating from background and taking in details)
- arcana (if its a magical ability in nature, or your body is magical)
- mechanics (how colors mix and perspective matters)
- endurance (biological processes or effort to perform a proper color change, or perhaps the process leaves you tired)

The craft/skill check can also apply to other chameleon stuff, like disguise quality, how accurately you can copy a pattern...

Speaking of skill checks: How does one apply/roll skill checks related to accuracy or power, in regards to some of the x-born racials and the stuff you can spit/shoot at things?

For instance, what skill check determines if the sticky webs you shoot with "webspinner" (spiderman-style) will hit a creature running away from you? Flat precision? Mechanics? Acrobatics?

Or how much voltage you apply with thunderborn (whether you burn out a fuse or just safely charge it)? Or how high temperatures you can cause with fireborn (for cooking a meal that needs to be heated to 600 degrees, for example)? Arcana, mechanics?

Technically, lowering the DC means it benefits anyone else making the skill check. Personally, I think the original name One With the Waves for the non-water spitting version sounds better. I think I might have a different idea on how to handle some of its concepts.

Shoo Be Doo:

ZamuelNow wrote:Technically, lowering the DC means it benefits anyone else making the skill check.  Personally, I think the original name One With the Waves for the non-water spitting version sounds better.  I think I might have a different idea on how to handle some of its concepts.

Shoo Be Doo:

Rolling twice is a fair way to do it I think.
However, immunity to water-pressure makes sense out of necessity, but any water-based impact? That kind of immunity is weirder than ones like fire and cold

Well, if someone with One With the Waves gets hit by a wave...

If someone with "One with the waves" gets hit by a tsunami, are they totally cool with that?

ZamuelNow wrote:Well, if someone with One With the Waves gets hit by a wave...

They're completely unaffected by the force because they're immune to water?

Hmm...that might be a fair point. Impact is different from the default destructiveness of fire/acid/etc. Deep sea pressure is the primary issue and obviously the Super Not Drowning Skills it already had.

Captn' Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:If someone with "One with the waves" gets hit by a tsunami, are they totally cool with that?

Well, considerin' thar be already a utility that makes "harmless" tsunamis...

First Mate Kindulas wrote:They're completely unaffected by the force because they're immune to water?

Aye, this be possible - you can flavor it as an aquatic creature havin' hydrophobic (or extremely hydrodinamic) skin or similar wards, that lets immense force from waves slide past them like a slippery jellyfish, rather than impact with full force. You can also give da sea beasties methods o' handlin' deep-sea forces, as fish or whales have, so one don't be going down Davy Jones locker unlike most landlubbers.

Xel Unknown wrote:

Kindulas wrote:

Xel Unknown wrote:For the final week of submissions:

[+2] Rocket Punch - Standard Attack
Pay 4 HP. Deal 2d6 damage to target creature.

&

[+3] Bloody Knuckles - Standard Attack
Pay 2d4 HP and deal damage equal to HP paid to target creature.

You know, this reminds me of my idea
[+1] Blood Arrow - Standard
Deal 2d8 damage to target creature and you lose that much hp

But... I think these concepts would be best at +2, since we already have Blood Slash, but it seems more attractive if the "pay life for above the curve damage" came with more than the +1 pip gain

In theory I balanced the idea when compared to Supercharge...

Supercharge:
1 - 8 self damage, which can be resisted, has a 50% chance of dealing 1 -10 damage to an enemy. And if you want you can bypass the self-damage if you are blinded. (also if your blinded and do still get hurt by Supercharge, you still feel like you'll get better odds on the second coin flip.)

Bloody Knuckles:
2 - 8 loss of life to self, IE this can't be resisted at all, 100% dealing damage to an enemy. AND CAN'T CRIT.. Which is a drawback in my book. (Or at least in the maths should count as one.) Also unlike Supercharge if your blinded with this talent it feels like a bad thing...

But I guess you got a point with Bloody Knuckles outclassing Blood Slash a little too well... So then, I'd love to first try to see opens to nerf Bloody Knuckles in ways other then turning it from a +2... Maybe having a coin flip that if loss the damage it cut in half?

Like this:
[+3] Bloody Knuckles - Standard Attack
Flip a coin, if you lose, you are considered weakened till the end of your turn. Then Pay 2d4 HP and deal damage equal to HP paid to target creature.

Would enjoy somehow getting to keep Bloody Knuckles to be a +3 move... But my first idea of how to keep it such... Really not liking it the more I think about it. Any ideas from you Kindulas on how to keep it a +3? Still... I've never seen the point of Blood Slash myself. Strikes me as just a token move made to be comboed with Gusher and nothing more.

It also works nicely with the two or three traits that give you benefits when you have save ends conditions, and it's a [+3] that does damage, so you can use it with a variety of multi-attack setups (With Expert Duelist+Gusher, you can do Blood Slash+Whirling Blades for 5+5+2d4 damage, every turn of a battle, while gaining a pip). Basically, it's a move that's very synergistic with things, works off one of the basic ideas in the system, that you can sacrifice your own safety and staying power in return for more damage.

Kindulas wrote:

Paper Shadow wrote:

Power Overwhelming (Utility Talent):

This is pretty funny, but I would be loathe to add more "get extra magic point" abilities... and actually, ones that do should probably have a drawback that doesn't mess with the MP itself.

I disagree. Well, in most cases I would agree with each statement individually. More Magic Points encourage a build where you don't want to do anything but spend magic points, and stuff that mess with the things it gives I usually don't like either, but I think this is the right path for another magic point thing. Think of it as the Magic Point Personal Project...

It still seems mostly redundant right now to make that kind of move a +3 while +2 and +1 don't have anything like it.

Also, I realized we can actually get accurate math for pay life effects.
Because healing (or damage prevention) moves do 150% damage, that basically means that player hp is worth 2/3rds of equivalent damage dealt to an opponent.

In essence, if you pay 3 life, you should get to deal an extra 2 damage.

Of course, the problem is the curve for + moves is somewhat poorly defined in terms of damage, as they aren't percentages of 6.5 right now. Whether they should be is actually somewhat debatable...

You problally got a point... Then again, I'd suggest getting in a +3, +2, and +1 versions of Bloody Knuckles would be really sweet.

Kindulas wrote:Of course, the problem is the curve for + moves is somewhat poorly defined in terms of damage, as they aren't percentages of 6.5 right now. Whether they should be is actually somewhat debatable...

I mean, we could say +1 is 5.5 damage, because that's what it is *now,* but we should shy away from stuff that would likely have to be altered in the rework, and +2 is especially odd..

NOW
if we wanted to do it as a [-] power that easier right now. .

[-3] Blood Cleave - Standard Attack
Deal 3d10 damage to target creature and lose 1d10 hp.

5.5 * 3 = 16.5
16.5 - 13 = 3.5 above the curve
5.5 * 2/3 = 3.66666666666666666

Mostly my ideas were just for with Rocket Punch trying to build a single target version of Arcing Bolt that got buffed in some ways and a drawback becuase I figured just having a +2 that does 2d6 damage would be a bit too strong.

And the idea behind Bloody Kunckles was to build something that used 2d4 for an attack and be a + move, also figured it'd be cool to add another +3 move to the system.

Xel Unknown wrote:Mostly my ideas were just for with Rocket Punch trying to build a single target version of Arcing Bolt that got buffed in some ways and a drawback becuase I figured just having a +2 that does 2d6 damage would be a bit too strong.

And the idea behind Bloody Kunckles was to build something that used 2d4 for an attack and be a + move, also figured it'd be cool to add another +3 move to the system.

I do agree that more +3s would be cool, but the fact is that the role of "A +3 attack that deals damage in return for taking damage" has been filled, and blood slash's math is actually appropriate, since while I stated self damage is 2/3rds outgoing damage, ongoing damage is 1.5, making things that give you ongoing should give you back equivalent flat outgoing damage.

So then... A +3 that deals with rolling 2d4s... How to build?

Xel Unknown wrote:So then... A +3 that deals with rolling 2d4s... How to build?

Hm... well then, if it's the 2d4 you're attached to... what possible drawbacks... I mean, it would have to be pretty substantial honestly... looking at Taunting Strike, which... is debatably under-powered actually, especially compared to Blood Slash...
so, let's see, 2d4 damage is basically 5 damage above the curve. I... am hesitant to allow a +3 to do that much, even with a technically equivalent drawback... maybe if we inflate the drawback a tad...

Well... Maybe we just split the two ideas now that I think about it. I do really feel attacted to getting a move that deals 2d4 damage.

But maybe instned the +3 deals a 1d6 damage and paid HP?

Let's see... 2d4 is 5 damage, so... that's like a +1.5 based on the current + abilities.
That's rather vexing...
Though actually, perhaps 2d4 as a +2 with like, 2 paid HP?