Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

1) Right, but extra magic points are fine at a cost. Derp, for example, provides an extra magic point at a cost. How many extra magic points are we talking about for a standard 4-5 player party?

2) I run a D&D camp multiple times every summer. Got 20 kids signed up for this one. Today's the first day. 

[Paper Shadow]

Woah woah, hold on. I though Morale Boosts from the same source didn't stack? Like you could only get +1 Instant-Party Morale Boost, even from multiple Instant-Parties, but you could get a larger Morale Boost by using different sources, such as Party Everyday and Grandeur...

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

That's the idea. I just don't know if it's been implemented yet. It wouldn't just be morale bonuses though, it'd be every kind of stackable passive bonus (unless there are currently some we *do* want to stack and would have to make note of that.

[kajisora]

oops, wrong thread.
moved message to exansion thread

[Philadelphus]

I actually do want it to be possible for companions to have companions, so long as we can find a way for it not to be broken.

I'd argue that it isn't broken now, since it costs two utility talents to get a companion with one utility talent of their own. I did the math, and it turns out you can nest companions as deep as you have utility talents (i.e., at level 1 with five utility talents, you could have a companion who takes a companion who takes another companion who takes yet another companion, who takes a final companion). HOWEVER, each of these companions is spending all but one of their racial points on taking another companion, leaving a net result of five 1-point companions...exactly the same, mechanically, as if you had simply taken the Companion utility talent five times with your five UT slots. So it's different flavor, but mechanically indistinguishable.

Also, I like the idea of some Pet-Only racials. Maybe some weaker, cheaper versions of some of the 2 and 3 point ones.

[Zarhon]

Also, I like the idea of some Pet-Only racials. Maybe some weaker, cheaper versions of some of the 2 and 3 point ones.

Indeed. In its current form, you need to invest two talents or more, just to get some of the typical domesticated animals with their natural traits. Maybe make some 1-point, pet-only racials, that allow the pet to fill the role of some "archetype" animals (e.g. cats, dogs, birds...)? It can work similar to familiars in D&D.  

Feline Agility - Companion only
This companion is immune to fall damage, and receives a +10 bonus to climbing and jumping.

Enchanted Fish Bubble - Companion only
This companion has gills, allowing it to breathe in water (but not outside of it). At will, the pet may create a special bubble of water, allowing it to move or be transported within, outside of static water sources.* The bubble doesn't break from damage, but both the liquid and pet within it can be influenced and pushed out of it.

*The bubble is treated like a hamster ball: Rolling or bouncing around the ground. It can be lifted with magic or manually, and if the pet can fly, the bubble flies with it.

Amphibious Reptile - Companion only
This pet can breathe above and under water, and can use the "Leggo" utility talent at will.

Canine Hunter - Companion only
This companion can "see" and detect scents, odors and fragrances, allowing it to track and identify such, and has the "Call Out" ability.

Oviparous Avian - Companion only
This companion can fly at will, without penalty to skill checks (Cloud Chaser). Once a day, it can lay an egg. This egg can be eaten, thrown at another creature (causing 10 seconds of blindness), or kept warm and safe for three days, after which a baby/chick of its species will hatch. Baby/chick born this way are treated as companions without racial points, and cannot be resurrected.

[kajisora]

Oviparous Avian - Companion only
This companion can fly at will, without penalty to skill checks (Cloud Chaser). Once a day, it can lay an egg. This egg can be eaten, thrown at another creature (causing 10 seconds of blindness), or kept warm and safe for three days, after which a baby/chick of its species will hatch. Baby/chick born this way are treated as companions without racial points, and cannot be resurrected.

I will take this.
Then I will somehow convince the DM to do a time-skip. At least one year.
I will then proceed to flood the Big Bad with critters.
For added effect, my companion will be flavored as a giant fire-ant Queen.

silliness aside, I do like the idea of companion-specific skills

[Xel Unknown]

I've made a topic for us to talk more about companion add ons because this topic is for us to talk about what changes we want to have for this system and more to be for quick edits to things that need to be changes either nerfed or buffed or minor typos on the docs... I think... Also I figure it's better we don't cullter up this topic with companion utilties and racials.

[Hayatecooper]

[quote="Stairc -Dan Felder"]1) Right, but extra magic points are fine at a cost. Derp, for example, provides an extra magic point at a cost. How many extra magic points are we talking about for a standard 4-5 player party?


Well if Instant party stacks and everyone somehow gets nat 20's for everything? A lot. Even if they don't an additonal 1-3 Magic points could be the different between winning and winning so hard core you break everything.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Well if Instant party stacks and everyone somehow gets nat 20's for everything? 

 Let's pay attention to reality though. A 1/20 chance is what I'm interested in. Total up the number of instant party talents you can make - then multiply by 0.05, That's how many magic points an individual player is expected to generate this way. What's the result for that?

@Xel - Awesome, can't wait to read the thread and see all the excellent ideas.

@Philadelphus - Yep, I think it's safe in power currently. You can get a truly astonishing number of skill monkies this way due to Specialist... But that's frankly pretty cool.

[Hayatecooper]

Well if Instant party stacks and everyone somehow gets nat 20's for everything? 

 Let's pay attention to reality though. A 1/20 chance is what I'm interested in. Total up the number of instant party talents you can make - then multiply by 0.05, That's how many magic points an individual player is expected to generate this way. What's the result for that?

Well (Math worked out by Philadelphus. So I make no promises that they are 100% but he is pretty damn smart so I trust him)
Have a party of 6 plus my three companions(Note this is on lvl 1)
All three companions take instant party
Which gives everyone a +3 moral bonus for the day and 3 chances to roll for magic points.
Apparently for one party member to get all three nat 20's is 1 in 8,000. But seeing as that isn't going to happen, we're more interested in the chance that one of the 9 party members will get 1 additional magic point.

The chance that one party member rolls at least one 20 in three tries is 1 minus the chance of rolling no 20s, or 1-(19/20)^3 or apparently 14.5%

Apparently, the chance of 9 party members getting at least additional MP for the whole group(So not one each... just one for the entire party overall) by rolling 3 dice each is 1-(0.95)^27=75%. 75% chance for even one additional magic point is insane or at least crazy good and useful...  note this strategy becomes MORE POWERFUL if your main character takes instant party as well and gets larger the more you level up and the more companions, companions you collect.

This is less advocating "NERF INSTANT PARTY" and more Why are we letting our characters pets get pets? Because no one is going to do the above with main characters. Sure having a horde is fun but it's a pain in the arse for DMs to watch over(Note this is also an extra 3 chances for a +2 assist roll as well) and once you start stacking crazy things like Pack mentality or Fireborn bad things start happening fairly quickly.

heh.. that's a fun idea. Give one pet Fireborn and the other pyrotechnics and send them in as a Blinding hitsquad.

[Zarhon]

At the risk of bringing discussion a bit offtopic: Should we make a thread dedicated to requests for rules clarifications or additions (something like a "to-do list" for the doc editors)? Stuff that's "unofficially" accepted as the rules, but aren't put in the doc yet (meaning new players have no way of knowing these)?

There's a lot of vagueness inherent in the doc, and questions that often get repeated, or rules that have been stated in this forum, but not written down / updated in the actual documents. It's nearly impossible (particularly with no real method of searching - the forum's search box only looks up thread names) to look such info up in the backlog of posts only compounds the problem. Normally, a Frequently Asked Questions segment would be helpful, but for the handbook, would probably be too large to conceivably fit into the handbook.

For instance, off the top of my head, I can think of the following rules/clarifications (most of which have been stated in this forum) would be good to add to the respective docs, either directly or as comments:

- How crits affect assist rolls, or the assisted check itself.
- Behavior of conjuration weapons, when KO'd (they vanish).
- Behavior of PiPs after one is KO'd (or with PiP-loss preventing stuff active).
- Behavior of status effects after a creature is KO'd (especially with disables or other "hindering" actions), or with "granted" abilities to disabled allies.
- Heal checks (whether they can heal combat injures, or are just medicinal insight).
- Out-of-combat healing of combat hp.
- "Free action" keyword listing them as having "no cost".
- "Stacking" rule (doesn't stack if not stated) for many talents, both combat, racial and utility.
- Whether having incoming damage fully resisted, negated, or fully mitigated with temporary hp counts as "taking damage", in regards to triggers.
- How combat talents that affect both caster and a target of their choosing (e.g. blood slash) are treated, in regards to triggers.
- "Sacrifice" keyword clarification (conjuration brought to 0 hp).
- Some of the combat rules (e.g. "how combat works", initiative, hp/defeated/dying, decimals etc) are listed in the PH handbook doc, but not in the combat talents doc, which is a bit clunky.
- How specials are treated if their triggers are countered/prevented by an interrupt effect (e.g. interrupt-stunning a player for using a d8 attack that triggers the d8 crit).
- What order do "at the start of turn" or "at the end of turn" effects act (e.g. regen + ongoing damage).
- DM note in regards to combat items, when it comes to exchanging/"selling" them. Similar thing for switching out/exchanging utility talents or combat talents for players.
- An update to the "sample characters" (or at least, a note that they're outdated, to avoid new-player confusion).

[Ramsus]

It'd be nice if the character sheet template could get updated to have Brawn and Athletics correct and to remove the ] after Endurance.

[ZamuelNow]

Zarhon made a ton of excellent points I keep forgetting to bring up but I think his is more comprehensive.

@Ramsus: Had actually done an update to the old sheet though it might not have been seen due to where it was posted. Let me know if there's any fixes needed or suggestions.

Was fiddling around a bit and did an updated revamp of the character sheet template.  Stuff has been added to the system since then, plus it felt like there was wasted space that could have been better formatted.  Plus, I don't think there even was a character sheet for Living Legends so I did one for it as well.  Obviously, people can still use the old sheet if they like but figured this might be of use.  Oh, and I'm open to constructive criticism if people have suggestions for these.

Aspirations of Harmony Character Sheet Template
Living Legends Character Sheet Template

[Xel Unknown]

Instant-Party - 1/Day
Preparation Time: 5 Minutes
You somehow come up with enough scrumptious food and tasty drinks to satisfy six people for the day. Each player participating in the party gains a +1 morale bonus to all skill checks for the rest of the day and may roll a d20. If the result is a natural 20, that player gains a Magic Point.

Insta-Party only works for up to six people. So in that three companions doing the party, only the PCs would get the Morale Bonusi and the chance of getting a magic point... Which at this point, is kinda high to make it. If you got a full party that'd mean the party rolls up to 18 d20's... And any of those that get a nat 20 mean free magic point. Sure you can't assume that anyone would get it. But the odds are quite high.

---

To the topic of updating character sheets I as well got my own suggested updated character sheet, mine working on keeping the combat/non-combat divide in mind: Blank Character Sheet (updated)

[Fury of the Tempest]

So, bringing this up due to spotting Zarhon's 'Overshadowed' combat talent, which raises up a good point about Granite Axe.

Now that the shield exists - as much as I don't like its current form - Granite Axe doesn't do all that well as a 'Defender' Conjured Weapon, with no actual ability to defend others apart from its ultimate... so, Kind remarked that he wanted to rework it into a 'Juggernaut' weapon, a hard to kill damage dealer.

Shall we start discussing that rework?

[Hayatecooper]

Hmm.
good point Xel I'll have to rework the maths slightly.
But my point still stands on multiple minions and allowing them to stack helpful things.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

1) YES, we need to fix the sample characters. I'm going to yell at kindulas to do that a lot. Frankly, it should be the number one priority. Problem is, he's unavailable at the moment and I'm *way* too busy with D&D camp (also still technically not doing dev work - helping pass the baton so we have more than one person that can approve/update things).

2) It sounds like the parasprite build would just provide +3 or +4 (I forget, and also before the no-stacking rule soon comes into effect) to all skill checks and likely produce 1 extra magic point among a 6 person party. That's awesome, but if you spend *all* your utility talents and racial traits doing that, it seems more than fair.

[Kindulas]

Zarhon made a ton of excellent points I keep forgetting to bring up but I think his is more comprehensive.

@Ramsus: Had actually done an update to the old sheet though it might not have been seen due to where it was posted.  Let me know if there's any fixes needed or suggestions.

Was fiddling around a bit and did an updated revamp of the character sheet template.  Stuff has been added to the system since then, plus it felt like there was wasted space that could have been better formatted.  Plus, I don't think there even was a character sheet for Living Legends so I did one for it as well.  Obviously, people can still use the old sheet if they like but figured this might be of use.  Oh, and I'm open to constructive criticism if people have suggestions for these.

Aspirations of Harmony Character Sheet Template
Living Legends Character Sheet Template

This works quite well. I use an MS word template because I can't stand the excess white space in Google Docs, so I use columns, but then I often print - this is more friendly for an online thing, and I'm guessing people would prefer the sample characters were on a google doc template. However, I can see adding a spot for current hp, pip, conditions under "Combat," and something to keep track of Magic Points on the front page. And actually, having the attributes and skills listed at 5 might be a good idea, since the handbook describes everything starting at 5, with 8 points to dole out
Also, the font in the LL version while used for the LL headers so I get why you used it, looks awkward in small size

[Ramsus]

I think you'd want stuff like HP listed with the combat stuff. Magic Points being near the top (just under stats) would be good I think.

[ZamuelNow]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I2Qb1Xt6MLxEaPj70jLqWYk2DJ7y5OgTbMLgIkFAKxY/edit#

Attempted implementing the changes and turned comments on for the document. Added "Status" in case a character was cursed or in the middle of resting in a previous game. Did some page breaks for this that'll probably be removed for the final version. Left the Attributes/Skills currently blank since a player may buy their points any number of ways, especially if they take Specialist. Up for everyone's opinion on that. Would really like it if there was some spreadsheet type function to auto calculate that. May try to research it some.

[Ramsus]

Looks pretty good. I think it looks better with the #s than it would with 5s.

[Kindulas]

I question the need of "Equipment/gear," and perhaps "status" too - they seem kind of like the things you'd put in "Misc character notes" at the bottom

[Kindulas]

Last things, I think Times New Roman is better than Arial (maybe just a personal preference)
and I think that the Element/Virtue, being a single thing and a promenant one, should be listed before Utility Talents... though I guess it's listed after in the handbook... which has always bothered me...

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Think we should move the element/virtue before utility talents?

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