Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

[Kindulas]

I really do, it seems more like a starting point, especially considering it's one choice, not 5

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Not a bit odd that they're basically utility talents that we'd have to explain without the help of utility talents first?

Though I suppose it's not exactly a huge leap.

 I'm ambivalent frankly. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 EDIT - Actually, now that I think about it the idea of, "Choose one of these special utility talents, then choose 5 more with that in mind" makes more sense than, "choose 5 utility talents, then choose this one special thing". Especially considering the fact they're magic talents. New players might not realize they're going to get a Magic talent via their element/virtue and will thus take one too many during utility talent selection. Then they'd go redo that... Small thing, but it might be a slightly smoother way of doing it. Not sure if it's worth changing the presentation though. Thoughts?

[Kindulas]

Oh, and it says "Special Ability" instead of "Special Move"
Also, I don't think we need to label them "LEsser" and "Greater" and such

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Label which 'lesser' or 'greater'? Not following.

[Kindulas]

Also because people are going to be copying stuff in 12 point font, we probably should have the headers be more like 14-18

[Kindulas]

Label which 'lesser' or 'greater'? Not following.

Special Moves

[A1C Bronymous]

Oh, now we're discussing standardized fonts? Arial, 12 pt font for list item names, 9 for descriptions. Headers can be 12 with different type, or just bigger. I have that memorized, because that's what it is on the "original" temp character sheet template, and I kept changing all of my updates to match so my eyes wouldn't bleed.

[Fury of the Tempest]

I think the element talent should be before the other talents.

[Xel Unknown]

Personally I like the element going after the rest of the utilities... I've always seen the others as more major choices. But that's just me.

[ZamuelNow]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I2Qb1Xt6MLxEaPj70jLqWYk2DJ7y5OgTbMLgIkFAKxY/edit#

Moved some stuff around and tried to use the suggestions. Once finalized, I'll do the AoH/LL split and remove the placeholder text in the character description paragraph. Something I heard a while ago that I agree with is that Arial is better to read on a computer screen while Times New Roman is better for print. Testing out having the Element higher up to see how well it looks.

[Xel Unknown]

[0] Blood Weapon - Minor Utility [Inspired by Chris Pauly]
Pay 10 hp. If you do, you conjure a Blood Weapon in your hands. You can dismiss the Blood Weapon as a free action. While you are wielding a Blood Weapon, you cannot use your other combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

[+2] Crow Claw - Standard Attack
Deal 1d10 damage to target creature.

[+1] Douse in Blood  - Minor Utility
You lose 5 hp.

[-1] Sanguine Cyclone - Standard Utility
Deal 1d12 to target creature and all creatures adjacent to it.

[-5] Eviscerate - Standard Attack
Deal 3d8 damage to target creature. If you are bloodied, deal 5d8 damage to that creature instead.

[0] Blood Weapon - Minor Utility [Inspired by Chris Pauly] [Reformatted by thematthew]
You lose 10 hp. If you do, you conjure a Blood Weapon in your hands. You can dismiss the Blood Weapon as a free action. While you are wielding a Blood Weapon, you cannot use your other combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

[+2] Crow Claw - Standard Attack
Deal 1d10 damage to target creature.

[+1] Douse in Blood - Minor Utility
You lose 5 hp.

[-1] Sanguine Cyclone - Standard Utility
Deal 1d12 to target creature and all creatures adjacent to it. If you are bloodied, gain hp equal to the result as well.

[-2] Blood Curse - Standard Utility
Up to 6 target creatures are affected by your blood curse(save ends). Creatures under your blood curse take 1d8 damage whenever you lose hp or take damage. The blood weapon vanishes.

[-5] Eviscerate - Standard Attack [Inspired by Ramsus]
Deal 3d8 damage to target creature. If you are bloodied, deal 5d10 damage to that creature instead.

This is an edit to Blood Weapon I'd love to see made official if possible. (wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the New Expansions topic, figure this one's the safer bet cause this would be an edit to something that's already in the system)

[sunbeam]

Can you list the proposed changes, so nobody misses anything? I've caught edits to three moves at this point.

[Xel Unknown]

Basically the updates did 3 things:

1) Sanguine Cyclone now heals you if you are bloodied, allowing the weapon to not completely murder its wielder, but ensuring it won't get you back to full health ever. Kinda a clinch move, since the weapon wants you to be bloodied just enough.

2) Eviscerate now deals d10s if bloodied. This raises the average damage up to a whopping 27.5, but comes with the drawback of needing to keep yourself just bloodied. Also it is a -5 move, so it should be better than Furious Rage.

3) Added in Blood Curse. This power is the current idea for an ultimate with the blood weapon, since it combos well with Blood Weapon in addition to the various warlock abilities that hurt you. I feel it is reasonably comparable to a souped up version of Barter in Blood as a Standard action.

My analysis of the talent is in the Breaking the Unbreakable thread, page 13 post 10 if you are interested in reading it.

Becuase I was a derp this was the basic listing of edits.

[Zarhon]

Here's my proposals/ideas/options of how to update Granite Axe:

1) Turn it into a weapon that punishes attackers, and still allows damage if not attacked (via temporary hit points).

Spoiler:

2) Focus it around temporary hp for damage, but allow some easy methods of recovering/generating temporary hp, or punishing attackers who remove them with damage.

Spoiler:

3) Rework or get rid of the ally tanking aspects - that's what the newly-implemented shield conjuration is for, and the temp hp tanking is both inefficient and makes dealing decent damage impossible.

Spoiler:

3) Either completely rework or buff Earthquake to not be suicidal/weak. Not sure if its damage is balanced.

Spoiler:

4) Give it better/faster PiP generation options. A minor action instead of a standard, for instance.

Spoiler:

5) Give the Granite Axe status/save ends effect resistance, or immunities to such, as it's "ace card".

Spoiler:

6) Allowing the Granite Axe to grant or transfer lots of temporary hp to allies.

Spoiler:

[Fury of the Tempest]

That's... a LOT of suggested changes.

Is there an actual redone axe you would prefer? Because not all of those changes can be implemented,

[ZamuelNow]

With the new official sheet I just realized that instead of "Notes" that should probably just be a spot to list Experience.  Still need to add a version to the Living Legends Player's Guide (which is really just changing Horse-Sense to Sense, changing Element to Virtue, and maybe using a different header font for the player name).

As far as the template ponies, I find it interesting since I was working on a set of archetypes a while back and just now started back on them.  Several need updates (on the combat side, sunbeam helped me bring Blaster and Dervish back up to par) and there's a few I never got to.  I'll go ahead and link to it below though the listed look good.  Spell Book is missing a third training due to Finishing School while Sneak Attack's Knowledge block isn't filled in.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uMPZxrcnhsGt5tSj9IFa7bzMP48u0ScnBaegq2Zmgik/edit

[A1C Bronymous]

I was thinking, why is Terrify a Racial Trait?

Terrify (2) - [1/Day]
Characters of your race can put on a terrifying display, terrifying a creature that can see you for the next minute. Creatures gain +5 to persuasion checks when attempting to intimidate a terrified creature.

It's 2 points, so it equals a UT, so why not just have it as a UT? Or have a UT counterpart? The main reason I bring this up is that a) anyone, of any race should be able to terrify someone, if it's in their nature to do so; and b) you get more UT's as you level, so you can spare one of those slots if you want to terrify someone, and get more later, but once you pick your racials you're set with them (minus certain destinies, etc), and it eats up 2 points.

[Kindulas]

I was thinking, why is Terrify a Racial Trait?

Terrify (2) - [1/Day]
Characters of your race can put on a terrifying display, terrifying a creature that can see you for the next minute. Creatures gain +5 to persuasion checks when attempting to intimidate a terrified creature.

It's 2 points, so it equals a UT, so why not just have it as a UT? Or have a UT counterpart? The main reason I bring this up is that a) anyone, of any race should be able to terrify someone, if it's in their nature to do so; and b) you get more UT's as you level, so you can spare one of those slots if you want to terrify someone, and get more later, but once you pick your racials you're set with them (minus certain destinies, etc), and it eats up 2 points.

A utility talent is worth 1.5 racial points

[ZamuelNow]

True, but it does seem like a valid argument that it works quite well as a utility talent in concept since anyone could learn to be threatening in the right situation. The move isn't broken since it's a +5 only once a day. And it'd still be available to the creatures who get it as a racial so it's not like it would be negatively affecting their builds.

[Kindulas]

True, but it does seem like a valid argument that it works quite well as a utility talent in concept since anyone could learn to be threatening in the right situation.  The move isn't broken since it's a +5 only once a day.  And it'd still be available to the creatures who get it as a racial so it's not like it would be negatively affecting their builds.

That does seem fair... a 1/Day +5 bonus to a part of a skill really doesn't seem more powerful than your average talent

[A1C Bronymous]

Well a long time ago someone once said that UTs= 2 racial points, and that's why an extra UT was 2 pt racial, so that's why I thought that. But yeah, there are plenty UTs that give a 1 (or more) a day +5 skill check bonus. You should make sure to keep the "terrified" mood of it, so that it isn't just another of a deluge of skills that just add points to persuasion in general. In fact, most of those should be given conditions like "mood" or "setting" to make them less broken.

[Zarhon]

Hmm, if terrify is being brought up - what about "Villainous Laughter"?

In theory, is should be usable the same way as "terrify" (scaring creatures), but it's kinda inferior to other talents (e.g. illusionary mask, which is better in almost any circumstance).

It's whole effect of "convincing others you are evil" is also extremely situational (and possibly damaging to reputation, and terrible for subtle or stealth-related tasks), and the +10 is so-so of a bonus.

Perhaps make it so that:

a) The lightning flash is optional, or you can make the laugh impossible to hear by anyone you don't want it to, in case subtly is required, or some other "scary" effect that isn't so noticable (e.g. Frau Blucher horse whinny, or "silent movie villain" music...).
b) The lightning flash/thunder strike is an actual, non-flavor weather effect you control, when you first use it (for instance, making a nearby tree be set ablaze by a thunderbolt, or strike your Frankenstein lightning rod), or otherwise can bring up a "free temporary storm" for the duration, which acts normally. It could be paired with weather crafting, but not required to.
c) Equalize the intimidation/evil check, or generally buff it to be worth taking. Maybe make the "evil check" be attributed to any immoral or evil actions (e.g. +10 to stealing candy from a baby, or betraying someone, or scamming...)?

Edit: Checked up on terrify, made a false assumption on its bonus - compared to villainous laughter (which you can get at same price), Terrify is utter crud that one might as well never take. And compared to stuff like scent tracker/spider climb bonuses its cost, AND its daily limit, it's really underpowered for a racial. Didn't the bonus used to be higher?

For comparison/reference:

Spoiler:

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

I don't follow how 'terrify' is utter crud compared to villainous laughter. Terrify is usable an additional time per day, not at all insignificant, and its bonus works for your whole party. Villainous Laughter only works for you.

[Zarhon]

I don't follow how 'terrify' is utter crud compared to villainous laughter. Terrify is usable an additional time per day, not at all insignificant, and its bonus works for your whole party. Villainous Laughter only works for you.

Uhm...

Terrify (2) - [1/Day]
Characters of your race can put on a terrifying display, terrifying a creature that can see you for the next minute. Creatures gain +5 to persuasion checks when attempting to intimidate a terrified creature.

(Taken from Genetic Engineering)

I'd say a daily 10 minutes is better than a daily 1 minute (cause how much talking can your allies fit into that one minute?)

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Slow-Paced 50 Seconds of Intimidation

You can each deliver a simple threat to a particular NPC in 10 seconds or less. It's a +5 bonus to everyone's main check and assist checks, or a series of quick threats. It can also toss the benefit to an ally that is temporarily more intimidating. The only reason Villainous Laughter is comparable is because of the longer duration and the situational bonus to convincing people you're evil.

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