Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

[A1C Bronymous]

Aren't Red Requiem and Greater Electrocution (from lightning rod) kind of insanely overpowered? Red Requiem is just the old Crescendo, minus flat damage, plus the fact that it goes through resistance. It'll clear the field of minions without effort. Or, since "lose hp" is near broken in itself, at the very least it is exploiting it a bit too much, if stacked against a single enemy.

Greater Electrocution somehow costs LESS pips than regular electrocution, does one more damage die, and allows all three specials to be triggered at once (on the 20. Obviously the other die can trigger them as well). The once per battle and 2000 gold tag don't really seem like they would be enough to bring up the question "is it worth it?"

I'm obviously not a fan of things being declared OP and nerfed, but I've seen stuff that were much less potent than these get changed in the past. It's a bit confusing.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

We've as yet resisted adding a basic attack to the system, as it's just another thing to put on the character sheet that most people will probably never use. We resist complexity whenever possible, as the system's accessibility and friendliness to people that have never before played an RPG makes it great for making new gamer friends.

That said, I absolutely see how it's weird that a dedicated support character might be utterly incapable of fighting one on one. It's possible we might add something like the [+1] version of tackle. The move would have to be markedly inferior to other options, so it doesn't discourage taking a good balance of moves.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Aren't Red Requiem and Greater Electrocution (from lightning rod) kind of insanely overpowered? Red Requiem is just the old Crescendo, minus flat damage, plus the fact that it goes through resistance. It'll clear the field of minions without effort. Or, since "lose hp" is near broken in itself, at the very least it is exploiting it a bit too much, if stacked against a single enemy.

Greater Electrocution somehow costs LESS pips than regular electrocution, does one more damage die, and allows all three specials to be triggered at once (on the 20. Obviously the other die can trigger them as well). The once per battle and 2000 gold tag don't really seem like they would be enough to bring up the question "is it worth it?"

I'm obviously not a fan of things being declared OP and nerfed, but I've seen stuff that were much less potent than these get changed in the past. It's a bit confusing.

1) Yes, Red Requiem is like old crescendo minus the ability to benefit from damage-boosts and vulnerability. Those factors are what made old crescendo broken. This pierces resist, but that's not often a huge issue. It can slaughter minions, sure, but if you're spending all those pips to kill as many minions as fireswath probably would - that's fine. However, Red Requiem's ability to trigger crits might make it too powerful after the revamp.

2) Yes, Greater Electrocution also costs 2000 gold - which means it would normally cost 6 extra pips to use than the combat talent says on it. Add 6 pips to its current pip cost and tell me if it still looks unfair.

3) Most things get nerfed because of how they combine with other things. These look really powerful, but are very hard to make more powerful than they already are - which works well for balance.

[A1C Bronymous]

2) Yes, Greater Electrocution also costs 2000 gold - which means it would normally cost 6 extra pips to use than the combat talent says on it. Add 6 pips to its current pip cost and tell me if it still looks unfair.

Oh no, that's not even an argument. If 2000 gold = 6 pips, and 2000 gold also equals 1 trait, then what on earth is your justification for limiting things like Duelist? You should pay the equivalent of 12 pips to get 2 extra damage on one attack against a single target once per round? Or an extra minor action attack, paying 6 pips+ cost isn't enough for that?

Your "balance" gets less and less believable by the day.

3) Most things get nerfed because of how they combine with other things. These look really powerful, but are very hard to make more powerful than they already are - which works well for balance.

Then once again, why even bother with all of these different options, traits that support builds, or anything that can be meshed together at all if it destroy's your balance (which it should be doing, that's the point of having them). Just make it Attack, Defend, Heal, Wait. Four options, since anything beyond that is too powerful for us to handle. Right now, do you know what the most effective builds are? 1-2 turns building pips, then unleashing a huge attack, rinse and repeat. They're tedious and boring to watch, but they work the best because they operate solely on their baseline balance numbers, and you guys won't allow other, more complicated, more fun stuff to go beyond them. There's no trade off, no better payoff for higher cost. Combos are supposed to do more damage, that's why they exist. You can't make something, give it a bonus or two and a supporting action, and expect that it should have the same result as if you had just done the action by itself, that doesn't make any sense.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Just because you don't understand the balance Bronymous, doesn't mean it doesn't function fine. For example, you're reference of duelist for some reason is thinking that it gives 2 extra damage once per round. Here are the actual duelist traits.


Duelist
You deal +1 damage on on single target combat talents.
 
Expert Duelist
Prerequisite: Duelist
You lose the benefit of “Duelist.” Instead, you deal +3 damage on single target combat talents.

This averages out to Duelist being worth 1.5 damage per attack. If you make 3 attacks per round, very doable and in fact doing more is possible, that's 4.5 extra damage each round. A standard action is worth about 7.5 damage. So after 5 rounds of this, you'll have dealt 22.5 damage in this min/maxed build... Divide that by 7.5 and you actually get 3. That's 3 actions worth of stuff, or nine pips worth. That's 50% stronger than it should be. If you only make 2 attacks per round, it goes down to exactly where it should be - 2 actions worth of stuff, 6 pips, 2000 gold, 1 trait.


We definitely want to encourage cool min/maxing and interesting combos in the system. However, we don't want these combinations to make players monstrously more powerful than their allies and wreck all balance in combat. Min/maxers should be rewarded, but we want it to take a solid effort and ingenuity to make cool and more powerful builds. Because if a few builds overshadow everything else, it becomes more difficult to justify taking the less powerful and more interesting route in build construction. Having all the options end up being close in power means that lots more build options are legitimate approaches.

[Xel Unknown]

You know, the sooner you guys give us what "fuzzy math" you guys build the so-called "balance" around the sooner we might both be able to help fix it, and/or see that it's balanced.

[Fury of the Tempest]

Well, they do give the maths normally. Its not fuzzy, either.

I just think we should wait until the revamp till the math rules are fully released.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

It's been explained many times, and in fact I spent hours explaining it to you personally Xel. Your post right there gives me no desire to spend more of my time going over it again with you. At some point we'll probably write an official post of it too, but it might have to wait until after the combat revamp (since changing how crits work and a more focused approach on +1 and +2 powers, in addition to revisiting AOE attacks and similar instead of just copying how other systems value these things, will change the balance of most example moves). In the past, people have been scared off from design when shown all the numbers, because it can make things look too complicated. Items took a hit because of that in the beginning.

However, I'll remind people of the core of the balance in the system (which I actually just referenced above).

A standard action is worth 3 pips... And a very tiny bit more. +3 standard action powers are supposed to be like skipping your turn, you just a tiny bit of extra value for it (like 1 ongoing damage) so players feel like they did something on their turn.

1000 gold represents 1 extra standard action of value.

A trait represents 2000 gold.

Any other type of action (minor, free, interrupt, reaction) has its cost inflated by 3 over what a standard action would normally cost - so that if you go +3 standard action and -3 other action - you should still end up at the fair "1 standard action per turn" worth of value. We don't make free minor actions, free actions or similar though - as they'd be spammed ad nauseum for free value.

The math is that simple. Everything is based around it. There's some weirdness right now due the things mentioned above, but that doesn't have anything to do with the core system. Everything is balanced around this core - which, when done right - means that everything will have the appropriate cost for its effect.

[A1C Bronymous]

Well Duelist was recently changed from the last time I saw it. You did have expert give only a +2. I thought it had the once per round tag as well.

We definitely want to encourage cool min/maxing and interesting combos in the system. However, we don't want these combinations to make players monstrously more powerful than their allies and wreck all balance in combat. Min/maxers should be rewarded, but we want it to take a solid effort and ingenuity to make cool and more powerful builds. Because if a few builds overshadow everything else, it becomes more difficult to justify taking the less powerful and more interesting route in build construction. Having all the options end up being close in power means that lots more build options are legitimate approaches.

But they aren't. The nuke builds are the effective ones, because the others have no payoff to them- multiattacks are arguably weaker, and continue to be nerfed, and consistent hit builds are entirely underpowered compared to the other two because of the relative costs. You aren't bringing them into alignment, you're making the nukes the obvious choice.

"We want it to take solid effort and ingenuity" So what, the hours people take pouring over the talents, finding which works best with which and putting together exacting turn progressions in combat to pull off the best possible moves they can doesn't count as that?

And as for "min/maxing". You yourself, and the other devs, proposed very VERY early on that one of the key concepts and core tenants of this game was trying to prevent min/maxing in favor of more all around flavorable and open ended players. It was in the Handbook (idk that it still is). It was something that early suggestions and submissions were built around, and accepted or denied because of. But ever since the update floodgates opened (especially Genetic Engineering), just about every update and expansion you've added to this game has included things to make min/maxing more effective and more viable than all around characters. Filling roles and niches is just about all this game is about anymore, and if you don't put all you have into what you're best at, then you are woefully underpowered. Examples: Genetic Engineering let people choose what stuff they (as individuals, not races) would be best at and gain the appropriate boons. Magecraft actually included in its revamp from IW the suggested necessity of the user having a skill of 15 or higher in Arcana just to use it. Now in combat, you're saying you want to reward min/maxing in itself? What's the deal.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Well Duelist was recently changed from the last time I saw it. You did have expert give only a +2. I thought it had the once per round tag as well.

No, this was not the case. We made expert duelist +3 from the moment it was created months and months ago. The whole point was that +2 was too strong, +1 was too weak, so we solved it by having 2 traits end up being worth +3. It was never once per round either.

As for the rest of it, there are options to make focused characters and people that want to squeak every scrap of optimal play through combinations and cool builds will find nice options for that. However, we don't want to have these builds overshadow other ones tot he point where you feel wasted if you aren't building a focused character. That's why combos that go above and beyond the current power curve get nerfed - so that more builds are viable by comparison.

I know you have a strange hatred for Magecraft, but that's nothing I can do anything about. Magical Tricks exists for anyone that wants to have the ability to do minor magical stuff. If you want to craft dramatic and powerful magical effects, you'll need to pay for it. It's that simple.

[A1C Bronymous]

Well Duelist was recently changed from the last time I saw it. You did have expert give only a +2. I thought it had the once per round tag as well.

No, this was not the case. We made expert duelist +3 from the moment it was created months and months ago. The whole point was that +2 was too strong, +1 was too weak, so we solved it by having 2 traits end up being worth +3. It was never once per round either.

I was definitely wrong about the once per round, I remember, but I know for a fact without a doubt Expert was +2 only when you added it. I was using a caharacter with Duelist at that time and I had to make the decision on whether taking another trait to make up for the same effect was worth it. It's been changed.

I hated IW too, because it was vague by design and too many people had conflicting views about it. The fact that you have to pay extra for it isn't why I brought it up, its the fact that it has to be used by minmaxers in a system that was supposed to stay away from that. It also matches up with "Unicorns are the surperior race" trend that the UTs themselves seem to follow, but again that isn't the issue here.

[A1C Bronymous]

And keep in mind, I don't like it when things are put in, we get a chance to do something neat, and then they get nerfed and shit. I'm not saying you should nerf either Red Requiem or Lightning rod (I in fact plan to use both of them), but if you have this solid, infallible math that definitely works, then why does stuff need to be nerfed? Shouldn't the math and numbers be the same when you decide to put it in as when you decide its overpowered?

[LoganAura]

playtesting and this whole thing still being in alpha. Things good in theory, not in practice.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

1) No idea what document you were reading then Bronymous, because Expert has always been +3 since I designed it. You might be remembering that it *increases* the bonus to +3, so the second trait represents a 2 damage jump between it and the first.

2) The math stays the same. However, sometimes people find combos that we've missed which make things a lot stronger than we expected -or we just make an honest mistake. That's what alpha means. And in the future, even when we're out of alpha, we'll still make every effort to correct our mistakes when they become apparent.

[Hayatecooper]

I kinda have to agree with Bronymous, Magecraft is.. well.. insane. When you have characters with a base 20 in arcana + Freaky Knowledge + Whatever random bit of other upgrades they get, you get players essentially creating clones of themselves and other conjurations(Rolling 20's for clones obviously, but still hitting 40ish isn't that hard for them which should get you a decent construct that will last for a few minutes: not including Magic Points or Talent points in there either) and you essentially have a character who with the right build is going to kick everyone else to the curb(Especially if you take the Archmage destiny and become essentially the parties go to guy for everything cause you're essentially better then everyone apart from, the dedicated minmaxers)

So.. yeah.. Arcana is kinda the most broken ability in the game.

[sunbeam]

On the subject of nerfing despite solid math, the way I like to think about it is that each trait/talent/item has to be balanced for the "worst case scenario," where it is being used to its absolute fullest extent. So when developing the item (and setting a price on it), you come up with the most deadly/efficient/effective possible method of abusing the trait. If somebody else comes up with a more deadly method of using it (say, consistently activating Duelist 4 times per turn), then the item no longer has the proper cost, and is over-powered, and needs to be nerfed.

We're only human. The more you play the system, the easier it is to create these "worst case scenarios," but there will always be opportunities that slip through the cracks. That's what the alpha/beta of the game is for: Finding exploits and pointing them out, so that they can be nerfed.

[A1C Bronymous]

So what you're saying is, you guys try to program stuff into the game that are both balanced and really cool, but no one else uses it because they are obviously not as good as other exploitable combos, and then you nerf those exploitable ones when they are brought up, right? Well then give us an example of the "rewards" your intentionally designed options offer to those who go to the trouble to look through everything and find them. Just an example of something intentionally designed that we haven't found to be as good as or better than the "mistakes".

Because as I see it, the only really good intentionally designed stuff in here are the things that are explicit, and easily found by anyone who glances it over. Because any time its even remotely unclear, it goes in the ask a question thread, because we can't be sure you meant for it to work like that, and chances are you probably didn't.

[Fury of the Tempest]

I disagree. Magecraft is just fine, it rewards great focus, but doesn't require full devotion. Its powerful, but not overly powerful, and not guaranteed.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

[b style="font-weight: bold;"]@Bronymous[/b] - I think it's been explained time and time again at this point. We design things to be balanced, and to have some cool combos, but sometimes the whole community does a better job of finding a combination we didn't see coming and that throws off our balance. Sunbeam is correct. I can't possibly give you an example of extremely overpowered combos that are intentional - because they by definition would NOT be intentional.

We do not want to have builds in the system that are so powerful they make the other party members and other interesting build options feel pathetic by comparison for players that care abut being powerful in combat. We want everyone to be able to play an interesting build that they like and not worry about being comparatively pathetic in combat. We also want there to be lots of interesting build options for various playstyles and interesting combinations - so building characters in the system is fun. 

Not sure how much more plainly I can say it.

[Pingcode]

If there's anything I might chime in with wrt Magecraft - I feel that as an individual talent, it's too powerful. With this one talent, Arcana skyrockets from 'Magical Knowledge, muscling in on History's already limited turf, maybe Forcefields or Illusions if you've got them' to 'Supreme Wizard Skill that can replicate every other talent with a high enough roll', leaving very little in between. Hell, you can't even detect magic without it or a racial.

Considering the breadth of the magecraft rolls, perhaps it might be better to dilute them down more?

Something like:

Arcana - represents magical expertise and governs spells, can by default be used to detect and dispel magic, can use the magecraft rules when applied to utility talents you already possess.
History - rename to Academics, have it be the clearing house for all general knowledges and stuff like linguistics. Steals the Magical Theory domain from Arcana to make clear distinction.
Magic Tricks - As before, possibly add bonus to in-talent magecraft checks.
Magecraft - Opens up out-of-talent magecraft as written.

This way it should be possible to run the gamut from 'Just a pony trying something with their signature talent' (cf. Rarity so recently in FiD) to 'Specialist mage' (Magic Tricks + several 'spell' talents) to 'Generalist Mage' (Magecraft classic) to 'Archmage' (Magecraft Classic + several specialities)

Plus open up some juicy design space for Academics, which is a lot easier to dream up specials for than just History.

[Ramsus]

Since when do you require more than Arcana to detect magic? That sounds like more of a house rule than an official one since you wouldn't be able to use Arcana for anything if you didn't have specific utilities otherwise.

[Pingcode]

Since when do you require more than Arcana to detect magic? That sounds like more of a house rule than an official one since you wouldn't be able to use Arcana for anything if you didn't have specific utilities otherwise.

It's called out specifically as something that can be done using Magecraft in Sorcerer Supreme, at DC20. It seems intuitive to therefore conclude that the converse is true - without magecraft, it's not possible to detect magic using Arcana.

[Demonu]

We do not want to have builds in the system that are so powerful they make the other party members and other interesting build options feel pathetic by comparison for players that care abut being powerful in combat.

Okay, so I think I found a combat build that basically allows a level 1 character to fight an attrition battle against any enemy (1 on 1 or group) and win. You'll need the following:

1) [-2] Conjure Spectral Warden - Standard Utility
Conjure an allied Spectral Warden. It has the following statblock.
Spectral Warden - 1 HP
Trait - Guardian: When a Spectral Warden is conjured, its conjurer chooses another creature for the Spectral Warden to guard. The chosen creature cannot be attacked.
[0] Warden’s Boon - Standard Utility
The Spectral Warden grants you or target ally 1d8 HP.

2) [-3] Conjure Celestial Avenger - Standard Utility
Conjure an allied Celestial Avenger. It has the following stat-block.
Celestial Avenger - 1 HP
Trait - Celestial Shield
Celestial Avenger has resist 3
[+1] Avenger’s Challenge - Standard Attack
The Celestial Avenger deals 1d8 damage to target creature.
[-1] Divine Retribution - Interrupt Attack
Trigger – An enemy attacks an ally
Effect – Deal 1d12 damage to the triggering enemy.

3) [-1] My Life is Yours - Minor Utility
Pay 5 hp. Target creature gains 9 hp.

4) [-1] Blood Pact - Minor Utility (multiple)
For the rest of the battle, at the beginning of your turn, you gain 1 PiP and then lose 1 HP for each PiP you have.

5) Cutscene Immunity (Training Certificate)
Your conjurations cannot be targeted by enemy attacks until the end of their second turn.

6) Trinket - Talisman of Haste (1000 gold)
Once per day, you may reroll your initiative with a +10 bonus.

7) Trinket - Training Certificate (2000 gold)
Trinket
When you purchase this item, choose 1 traits that you meet the prerequisites for. While you have the Training Certificate equipped, you are considered to have the chosen trait. You may equip more than one Training Certificate at once.

Combat goes as following:
Initiative --> use Talisman of Haste to ensure you go first.
Turn 1: Bloodpact, Spectral Warden on yourself --> 1 pips
Turn 2: get 1 pips, Bloodpact, My Life is Yours on yourself, Warden heal --> 0 pips
Turn 3: get 2 pips, Bloodpact, My Life is Yours/any standard action, Warden heal --> 0 pips
Turn 4: get 3 pips, Spectral Warden on first Spectral Warden/yourself (if 1st warden is gone), My Life is Yours, Warden heal --> 0 pips
Turn 5: get 3 pips, Celestial Avenger, deal 1d8 damage, Warden Heal --> 0 pips
Repeat turn 4 and 5 to accumulate heals and damage (Celestial Avengers can also deal 1d12 when an ally is attacked)

The most essential thing is that you go first in initiative but after that, you're pretty much untouchable unless the enemies spam AOE.
The only weak point is turn 3 where they can destroy the Spectral Warden and then attack you. But if you don't die that turn, you're fine.  

At level 2 you can either take:
8 )Spellscape Familiar
When you roll initiative, you may conjure an allied Spellscape Familiar. It has the following stat block.
Spellscape Familiar - 1 hp
Trait - Familiar’s Boon
At the beginning of it’s turn, the Spellscape Familiar grants you 1 PiP
Trait - Familiar’s Resolve
Your Spellscape Familiar has resist 3.

so you can go:
Turn 1: Bloodpact, Spectral Warden, get 1 pip --> 2 pips
Turn 2: get 1 pip, Bloodpact, Spectral Warden, Warden heal, get 1 pip --> 1 pip
Turn 3: get 2 pips, Celestial Avenger, deal 1d8 damage, Warden heal, get 1 pip --> 1 pip
Turn 4: get 2 pips, Spectral warden, My Life is Yours, deal 1d8 damage, Warden Heal, get 1 pip --> 1 pip
Turn 5: get 2 pips, Celestial Avenger, deal 2d8 damage, Warden heal, get 1 pip --> 1 pip
Repeat turn 4 and 5 at infinitum until you win.
--> This protects you better due to double Spectral Warden on turn 3

Or you can take
9) Fast Gambit
You may make an additional minor action each turn, but you cannot use it to make attacks.

so you can go:
Turn 1: Bloodpact, Bloodpact, Spectral Warden --> 0 pips
Turn 2: get 2 pips, Bloodpact, My Life is Yours/any standard Action --> 0 pips
Turn 3: get 3 pips, Spectral Warden on first Spectral Warden/yourself (if 1st warden is gone), My Life is Yours, Warden heal --> 0 pips
Turn 4: get 3 pips, Celestial Avenger, deal 1d8 damage, Warden Heal --> 0 pips
Repeat turn 3 and 4 ad infinitum until you win.
--> This goes faster but still leaves the weakness at turn 3

Of course, at level 3 you combine the above and go as following:
Turn 1: Bloodpact, Bloodpact, Spectral Warden, get 1 pip --> 1 pip
Turn 2: get 2 pips, Celestial Avenger, deal 1d8 damage, Warden heal, get 1 pip --> 1 pip
Turn 3: get 2 pips, Spectral Warden, My Life is Yours, deal 1d8 damage, Warden heal, get 1 pip --> 1 pip
--> repeat turn 2 and 3 to accumulate heals and damage and win.

EDIT 1: I mentioned any standard action twice in the above. Obviously

[+1] Gather Energy - Standard Utility
On your next turn, you may take 2 standard actions. You cannot use this talent two turns in a row.

would be the best as it accelerates things even faster. But at level 3 you don't even need it anymore.

EDIT 2: If you find yourself not comfortable enough to take the chance at turn 3, you can always spam Spectral Warden until you are.

[Hayatecooper]

^
He solo'd a lvl 10 boss.... I shit you not.

[ZamuelNow]

History - rename to Academics

Aha!  Was trying to think of a proper term that would be better.  I'm still of the mindset that a few of the skills could stand to be renamed and about a third of them could stand to be reworded.  Considering the valid comment that flat Arcana probably could be more overt on it's options, I propose that Failsafe Spell have the prerequisites removed, especially since you can have a character that dispels magic who isn't a super mage.

Failsafe Spell:

---

On an entirely separate note, I still think that Detect Thoughts could stand rewording and/or a new name considering it's already been confirmed to be mind reading.

Detect Thoughts - Current:

Detect Thoughts - Proposal:

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