Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Xel Unknown Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:59 pm

Bronyoums makes a really good case... Hell I'd say you guys SHOULD SHARE THE MATHS, just becuase poeple wont understand it or agree with it, doesn't mean you should keep hiding it from us... The fact that you guys use some math for the system that you hide from EVERYONE we can't even do any maths ourselves to argue our talents, hell if we were try and make our own maths to argue for it, wouldn't shock me if you'd call it wrong becuase it's a different math system... That way I see it, if you share what maths you devs even use for the combat system, we can help you all, or try to even understand what types of talents are better suited to build... Maybe even suggest improvements to the math itself or something. I know I've stated it before that from our viewpoint because we can't see the math it might as well be "fuzzy math" you all are using and that's why you hide it. Nothing I've seen makes me think otherwise... Other then just getting a new system. I mean we're only eyeballing things as best can tell.

Hell you guys have commented that the maths seem to be wrong on some talents... Yet you still hide it form the very people who could try to help fix the maths.... WHY DO YOU DO THIS?

ZamuelNow Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:09 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:However, once the balancing metric is established, it needs to be followed consistently

I'd argue it should really be priority number one to get it established. Raw math is the type of thing that people could help with if they had the numbers. I was actually pretty shocked to hear that there wasn't a set metric for AOE versus single target. It would really help everyone, especially since the system is technically still in beta. Arguably, it might help in getting the Monster Compendium done, or at least partially started.

sunbeam Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:25 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Bronyoums makes a really good case... Hell I'd say you guys SHOULD SHARE THE MATHS, just becuase poeple wont understand it or agree with it, doesn't mean you should keep hiding it from us... The fact that you guys use some math for the system that you hide from EVERYONE we can't even do any maths ourselves to argue our talents, hell if we were try and make our own maths to argue for it, wouldn't shock me if you'd call it wrong becuase it's a different math system... That way I see it, if you share what maths you devs even use for the combat system, we can help you all, or try to even understand what types of talents are better suited to build... Maybe even suggest improvements to the math itself or something. I know I've stated it before that from our viewpoint because we can't see the math it might as well be "fuzzy math" you all are using and that's why you hide it. Nothing I've seen makes me think otherwise... Other then just getting a new system. I mean we're only eyeballing things as best can tell.

Hell you guys have commented that the maths seem to be wrong on some talents... Yet you still hide it form the very people who could try to help fix the maths.... WHY DO YOU DO THIS?

Alright, when Bronymous brings this up, I keep quiet, because I don't think he can find the math from what he has to work with. But Xel, you're in the skype group just the same as me, and you've been there for longer. And you know what I did? I extrapolated the math! I took all the details and the hints and the fuzzy bits and I put it together. And my system was off in a few places (i.e 3 pips =/=7.5 damage, 3 pips =6.5 damage). But I asked them about why my math wasn't matching up, and they explained it.
I can understand Bronymous trying to follow the math, and failing because most of the forum doesn't mention explicitly state any math behind what they're doing. (The one place that is an excellent exception to this is that thread that was just a skype chat of Kindulas, Nehiel, and Dan discussing how to rebalance Bezerker's Fury, because, obviously, they know what they're talking about. I cite that all the time when I try to use vulnerability in my calculations.) But Xel, you have had AT LEAST as much access to the developers as I have, so I don't see how you can't at least have a functioning guess at their model yet.

My one year anniversary on this forum is coming up. I saw from about 3 months in that the heart of this game was math and combinatorics. That was what intrigued me. So I theorized, and I calculated, and I got the math to work. It's still not at all perfect (which is why I'm not throwing my calculations at Dan when he mentions summarizing all the math, he clearly has better numbers than I do.), but it works, well enough that my balancing suggestions are so often accepted (when my worst case scenarios are actually the worst case scenario. You guys have been here far longer than me, just compare the post counts. No math involved here takes more than a basic understanding of combinatorics, which you probably already have just from looking at multiple dice roll probabilities. The math is there, under everything in this system, and it's perfectly calculable.

Xel Unknown Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:35 pm

That is what's different between us Sunbeam... I don't wish to guess at what they're math is.... I WANT TO KNOW THE HARD FACTS OF WHAT THEY USE. As you said yourself, they got "better maths" then even the theory ones you made. I feel there should be an area on this forum or something that clearly has their math system for at least the combats they use. And I feel there should be a topic on the maths and how to help impove them here on the forum... Yeah we got access to the devs... But I feel they equally aren't using the minds on the forum right when it comes to the mathical system they're using. If I were to use a somehow make my own theory on the math system to use... I'd not trust it... It wasn't what was used to build the system, therefore it's even more fuzzy then whatever they've got.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:56 pm

1) I've already said that I'm working on an 'explain everything about the system' doc that will be stickied and made very clear.

2) Both Xel and Bronymous have had the math explained in detail to them several times. Xel in particular has had it explained over the course of hours of my personal time. Bronymous had seen it posted in previous threads. The math has been indeed shared before and it exists in public on this forum, though not in a readily accessible fashion.

3) Calm down a bit. Let's not start shouting.

4) Here's a quick excerpt from that doc as it's being built. It's the start (and most important part) of the section regarding combat balance. I want to build an accessible and comprehensive document that tells people everything they need to know about how the system is designed and developed - including our design goals and philosophies in addition to the hard numbers.

How Combat is Balanced

3 Pips = 1 Standard Action
1000 Gold = 1 Standard Action
1 Trait = 2000 Gold

3 Pips = 1 Standard Action. This equation is the core which we base all the costs of our combat abilities around. The core concept is that using a [+3] standard action power is almost like skipping your turn. You get some extremely minor benefit, like gaining 1d4 temporary HP, so that the turn is a bit more fun than saying “pass” – but essentially using a [+3] standard action power is like skipping your turn. That means that a [-3] standard action power should be worth a little more than two [0] standard action powers. That way if you use a [+3] on turn 1 and then a [-3] on turn two – it balances out to the same value as using a [0] on both turns. Similarly, a [-6] power is a bit more than 3x as strong as a [0] would be. You get the idea.

Non-Standard Actions
Minor actions, free actions, interrupts, reactions – there are all sorts of actions other than Standard Actions. Unlike Standard Actions, there isn’t much of a limit to the number of extra actions you can take per turn. The main limit are the pips you pay.

Non-Standard Actions (Minor Actions, Free Actions, Interrupts, Reactions etc.) cost 3 more pips to use than it would if it were a Standard Action.

Non-Standard Actions should always have some cost associated with them, so it isn’t strictly better to include one in your build.

These two rules work together to keep non-standard actions in check. A [+3] Standard Action and a [-3] Non-Standard Action used in the same turn should balance out to equal a [0] Standard action (and that’s exactly where we want it balancing out to). Of course, if we took one of the [+3] Standard Actions and increased the cost by 3 in order to make a [0] pip Minor Action or something, it’d be a pure-benefit extra. Almost anyone not using something like that would be weaker than otherwise. That’s why we make sure that, in addition to following the increase-cost-by-3 rule, we also have the second rule of Non-Standard Actions of not making Non-Standard actions that don’t require some kind of cost.

**Kindulas** Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:09 pm

There are areas our math lacks to account for (as of yet) which include AoE damage, crits and the proper effect inflation for moves about 4 pip (to compensate for the time delay of building nukes.)

The basis as condensed to a single multi-equasion: 1 Standard Action = 3 pips value = 6.5 damage = 9.75 (6.5*1.5) Healing / Damage prevention = 1000 Gold

Also 1 Trait = 2000 Gold

A1C Bronymous Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:20 pm

I assume you'll extrapolate more on what values certain effects have that deem an action be worth 3 pips, and therefore a good balanced standard action, when you're finished with that (because as of right now it says all Standard Actions should be 3 pips, and ones that aren't three pips, should cost X times more than three pips- which means nothing yet). But its a WIP and I get that. Its certainly clearer than the non-explanations you've given before; i.e. "That's not balanced because it should equal x pips instead of y, or do z less damage". That doesn't explain anything, and that's why we keep saying you haven't explained it.

Here is an easy fix, though (one I've given before, even). Until I have a math degree and the formulae and algortihms necessary to work all this out on my own, I can't balance stuff. But the things I submit on here are submitted for their effects. Mostly. SO, when I suggest Hyper Beam, -4 pip cost, 4d10 damage, stunned (or skipped turn I guess, since that's what has to happen), instead of coming back and changing the effect to fit the pip cost, instead just change the pip cost to fit the effect. There's a good chance I'll be more ok with that, and won't fight it as hard. If the cost goes up by 1, say, to -5, and the damage stays the same and is under powered by 2-3 points of damage, then that's fine- just as long as its close, and not under by another die roll. Or round it up, as long as it doesn't go too far.

Obviously, though, if the cost jumps from 4 to 8 and the damage only goes up by a few points, then I may call shenanigans. But I'd like to think I can ballpark it pretty well at first.

This is probably the best solution to most proposed abilities- we don't know the math, but we know what effect we want, so you just tweak the cost to make it fit and it should work out.

Xel Unknown Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:22 pm

I do aplozige... To me when it comes to this subject I've only heard like the following:

Devs: WE USE MATHS!

Forum: Can we see all the maths you use?

Devs: NO! Not yet we're still fixing them... Maybe in a month or two when we give you version 2.0 of the system we'll feel like sharing it.

That's the farest the whole "maths" thing has been clear to me in terms of if they're ever going to be open to the public... And while I do enjoy that post, dan... Just it's so imcomplete to the system as a whole... So I'm still working on fuzzy maths... Which bugs me... I mean I don't fully understand what make's Brony's argument invald... I'd guess that yeah, it could be lame and work to insane levels... But isn't that sorta the point of the system... Anyone can do alright, but if you really work at it, you can do even better then normal? That's how I've flet the combat goes.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:28 pm

Kindulas wrote:There are areas our math lacks to account for (as of yet) which include AoE damage, crits and the proper effect inflation for moves about 4 pip (to compensate for the time delay of building nukes.)

Sadly yes. It's a byproduct of building the core system in about a week and trusting D&D 4th Edition when it comes to balancing these sorts of things (our AOEs are balanced similarly to their AOEs for example) and the fact this system is breaking a lot of new ground in its design. When we didn't expect this would be used for more than a single mini-series by me, or perhaps only one adventure, our goal was to get things, "balanced enough to get by and make sure things aren't obviously broken". As the popularity has grown, we've sought to meet higher and higher standards - which involves reworking a lot and checking the assumptions we've made before against cold hard mathematical models. We've also developed better tools and processes to balance games in that time, working on our other projects, so we keep wanting to make things better and better.

Edit - Xel, I get what you're feeling but have you forgotten our multi-hour talk about Ritual Knife and Amulet of Adrenaline? I explained all the above post in exhaustive detail.

Edit 2 - Wait, wait... This is so not the thread for this and no point into getting into arguments about who said what when. The point is that the overall math for everything (or design for the system itself) isn't clear yet and everyone agrees that is should be. I'm currently working on that and will get it up soon as I can.

A1C Bronymous Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:32 pm

Xel Unknown wrote: But isn't that sorta the point of the system... Anyone can do alright, but if you really work at it, you can do even better then normal? That's how I've flet the combat goes.

That's the point of most systems. I wouldn't guess its the same for this one though, since every time things can be put together to produce fantastic results, the results are declared to overpowered and the involved abilities are cut down. They don't want one player to outshine another, but the thing is that the way this system works, everyone has the same starting point and limitations, so the only ways to be different are to come up with stuff that makes your character slightly better, and Flavor. In other systems that have classes, minmaxy as that stuff gets, being the mage means your going to outshine the warrior in spells and noncombat applications, but the warrior is going to outshine the mage at taking and giving out damage. The non classes in this make that impossible. Everyone gets to come up with different stuff out of every conceivable option in combat, and the stuff cannot ever be 100% balanced at each other. Optimized builds are always going to be better than non optimized builds, and the optimized builds are often then treated as worst case scenarios that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

It's not a great situation. Protip, though: If you really want to have fun in a game, make an entirely non optimized combat build based on flavor, and character motivation being avoiding fighting as much as possible. I have one like that about to start, on Board no less, and its a great change of pace from trying to compete with the whole party for top combat guy.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:36 pm

And round and round we go Bronymous. How many times are we going to have this conversation? =)

Let's make a new thread for it. This isn't the place to talk about why we think making sure there are lots of powerful options instead of just a few - and that no option completely outshines all the other options or warps the party balance so much that casual players suffer (which also makes things hard for a DM) - is a good idea for the game.

Fury of the Tempest Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:57 pm

So... yeah.

Basically guys. Wait for the dev's to finish getting a document explaining the maths behind combat.

Then wait for the crit and AoE math to be figured out before suggesting any special moves or AoE moves.

**Kindulas** Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:40 pm

So
on the subject of Diamond Dogs, yes, I don't think they need to take up a piece of the expansion, they should just be put in if people are happy with them (I did mention that right >.>?)

ZamuelNow Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:18 am

Yep, was mentioned upthread.

Probably still needs fine tuning but suggesting it since it fits a concept. Opted to suggest it be a utility talent since it seems that's the easier setup for people who want multiples. Mind-numbing Pheromones wasn't suggested as part of this due to how powerful it sounds. Plus, it might be good to get some in now and then add on later.

Utility Talent - Woodsman category - Pheromones:

Pheromones - 1/day [Created by Zarhon]
When you use this ability, you spread pheromones through the air in a radius up to 50 yards around you. The pheromones linger in the air and on objects within their area of effect for 10 minutes. The pheromones can be washed away by strong weather conditions, cleansing agents, or simply destroyed. Any creature that is contaminated with the pheromones must roll an Endurance DC 25 to avoid being affected by them. The effects last for as long as they are unable to save against them, making a new endurance check every 10 minutes, with the DC reduced by 5 (stacking) for each failed save. You are immune to your own pheromones but can be affected by pheromones from others. Pheromones can also be used to simply negate an emotional state already in play, such as using Lovely Pheromones to calm someone's anger. When you take this talent, choose one of the pheromone effects below. You may take this ability multiple times, picking a different pheromone each time, and gaining an extra use per day:

Lovely Pheromones
Induces feelings of love in the affected creatures. You gain a +10 bonus to seduce such creatures or entice feelings of love towards other creatures. These feelings of love may be between two other creatures instead of towards yourself. They will do their best to protect any creature they are enamored with, going as far as to attack other creatures, if properly provoked.
Raging Pheromones
The effect of these pheromones lie dormant in a creature, slowly building until five minutes pass. The affected creatures then become hostile, induced to a blind rage. They will attempt to attack or assault a random creature in their vicinity. They snap out of their rage if their property, allies, or life would become dangerously threatened by their actions. Due to their aggravating nature, you suffer a -10 to persuasion checks whilst these pheromones linger on you.
Saddening Pheromones
Creatures affected by these pheromones are overcome by unexplained sadness and grief. They sit down, moping, and become unwilling to do anything, exerting minimal, if any, effort. They snap out of this if their lives, property, or allies become threatened.
Nightmare Pheromones
Creatures are overcome by intense fear, attempting to do their best to flee from you or an affected area. They will generally throw caution to the wind or may even attack you in desperation.
Poisonous Pheromones
Creatures affected by these pheromones become extremely nauseous and sick. All of their attributes are reduced by -2 for the duration. Most animals will avoid you and you suffer a -10 penalty to persuasion checks whilst these pheromones linger on you.
Control Pheromones
Whilst under the effects of these pheromones, creatures are in your thrall like a singular hivemind. Upon uttering a command of three words or less, all affected creatures will attempt to carry out your command to the best of their ability. Creatures are more likely to resist a command that would injure loved ones or go against their beliefs.
Natural Pheromones
These pheromones cause any creature affected by them to be treated as though under the effect of "Animal Magnetism", causing animals and other such creatures to treat them as friendly (they cannot command creatures without "Animal Speak", however). In addition, these pheromones attract a random species of animal to flock towards the contaminated location as if "Call Animal" was used.

Zarhon Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:35 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:Yep, was mentioned upthread.

Probably still needs fine tuning but suggesting it since it fits a concept. Opted to suggest it be a utility talent since it seems that's the easier setup for people who want multiples. Mind-numbing Pheromones wasn't suggested as part of this due to how powerful it sounds. Plus, it might be good to get some in now and then add on later.

Utility Talent - Woodsman category - Pheromones:

Hmm, now that I look at it again... should the duration to "re-save" against any of the pheromones be pumped up to 10 minutes? Cause otherwise, there's a chance that the "Raging Pheromones" become unable to act (since they 'activate' at 5 minutes, but you make a save against the pheromone effects after 5 minutes as well).

Otherwise, it seems pretty good (that initial block of text is a lot clearer) - it might indeed be simpler to make it a utility, although it does make sense to have it as a racial, too... Maybe add a (2) point racial version that works the same way (and is powered/upgraded by the utility version), but with a minor extra benefit (to make up for the racial vs utility cost), like 2/day uses, or with +1 pheromone to pick from?

Edit:
Oh, and another pheromone idea:

Numbing Pheromones:

**Philadelphus** Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:58 pm

An idea for an item Hayate and I had last night. Could be a weapon or a trinket. Basically, it lets you swap a Minor one for a Standard one. I'm not good at combat balance, so I'll let someone competent work it out.

Energizer – 1/Battle – 1000 Gold
You may use the following combat talent once per battle:
[-2] Energize! – Minor Utility
You may immediately take a Standard Action.

Greater Energizer – 3/Battle – 5000 gold
You may use the following combat talent three times per battle:
[-2] Energize! – Minor Utility
You may immediately take a Standard Action.

If it makes it in I'd really like to see a more and less powerful (and expensive) version differentiated by the number of times you can use each per battle, but I have no idea what the gold costs should be (or even if the energy costs are over/underpowered) so I'll leave the balance to you all.

**Lapis-Lazily** Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Well, there's already something like that in traits. It's not exactly the same, but similar enough.
Dual Wielder
You may equip two weapons instead of one. In addition, once per battle you may use the following combat talent:

[-1] Offhand Strike - Minor Action [1/Battle]
You may immediately take a standard action, as long as you use it to make an attack.

ZamuelNow Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:30 pm

Zarhon wrote:Hmm, now that I look at it again... should the duration to "re-save" against any of the pheromones be pumped up to 10 minutes? Cause otherwise, there's a chance that the "Raging Pheromones" become unable to act (since they 'activate' at 5 minutes, but you make a save against the pheromone effects after 5 minutes as well).

Makes sense. Went ahead and edited that in. Plus it simply makes it more feasible for some situations.

Otherwise, it seems pretty good (that initial block of text is a lot clearer) - it might indeed be simpler to make it a utility, although it does make sense to have it as a racial, too... Maybe add a (2) point racial version that works the same way (and is powered/upgraded by the utility version), but with a minor extra benefit (to make up for the racial vs utility cost), like 2/day uses, or with +1 pheromone to pick from?

Well, remember that the Naturally Skilled racial is already a 2 pointer that allows you to pick a utility talent. If it were a racial by default, someone would have to pick up both Pick of the Litter and Highborn before they could get it and they's have a lingering point left over.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:46 pm

Might be fun to have a conjured weapon that gives you access to a conjurer's build.

Fury of the Tempest Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:53 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Might be fun to have a conjured weapon that gives you access to a conjurer's build.

That's one of the weapons I've designed, never managed to complete it through...

**Paper Shadow** Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:00 pm

Doom! (Utility Talent):

**Kindulas** Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:11 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Might be fun to have a conjured weapon that gives you access to a conjurer's build.

That's one of the weapons I've designed, never managed to complete it through...

Ah yes, brilliant concept that one.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:17 pm

[-3] Power Up! - Standard Utility
When you take this talent during character creation, choose a trait that you meet the prerequisites for. You gain the benefits of the chosen trait for the remainder of this battle.

**Kindulas** Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:30 am

Paper Shadow wrote:
Doom! (Utility Talent):

I think this might be too much, the power of Jinx! is godly, but kept in check by the fact that you can't do that...
...
Maybe a destiny feature...

AProcrastinatingWriter Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:40 am

Couple racial traits. Kind of tired, so they might already exist and I'm subconsciously remembering them. If that last sentence is true, I apologize.

One with the Stars (1)
You can breathe in the vacuum of space.

Toxicborn (2)
You are immune to any non-magical poisons less potent than an adult Swamp Dragon's drool. In addition to that, you may (twice a day) secrete or otherwise produce one cup of venom of any potency less potent than an adult Swamp Dragon's drool.

Figure the first one is situational (and unlikely) enough to justify the single-point cost despite its obvious utility. The second one might a bit too powerful even as is, though, depending on how broadly you interpret the word "poison".

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