Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

I'm gonna have to de-rail the Derpy's Lightning discussion a bit in order to ask my own question...

The new Unicorn template is going to have Spellchild, right? If I use Changeling's Trickery to turn into a Unicorn, can I apply Spellchild to Changeling's Trickery? Or is it too munchkin-y and overpowered to do that?

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:You can't use more than one of your interrupt/reactions on the same action. Each player can only do one once per trigger.

To clarify, does this count for both utility talents and combat talents?

Other question: How come the genetics expansion doesn't have any version of ponykinesis/telekinesis as an available racial? Right now, unicorns have it as a completely unique racial. Every other race can only take ponykinesis/telekinesis via utility talents (unlike flight).

Also, bumping my previous question once again.

Zarhon wrote:1) Crescendo: Can you use the crescendo attacks in any order you wish (e.g. start with strongest one, end with weakest), or strictly in the written order that the talent states?

2) Crescendo: Can you choose to not utilize/perform/target with one or more of its attacks after spending the PiP cost (e.g. when you have only one target and don't wish to accidentally kill or defeat something)?

4) Eternal Flame enchantment: Can it "spread"? What's is its color or appearance, compared to a regular flame (is it an obvious difference or not, or can it be used to bluff creatures with threatening them with it)? How much control does the caster have over it (Where does it appear, what range, can it fly around, etc...)?

Ponykinesis isn't in the GE document because that's what Naturally Skilled is for. It basically turns every single utility talent into a 2 point racial, without having to actually list them all.

BUT, it was recently decided that PK would be made into a 1 point racial, so it may get listed anyways.

[-2] Splash it in Their Eyes - Standard Attack
Deal 5 damage to target creature and each creature adjacent to it, and those creatures suffer a -3 penalty to damage (save ends).

Is "-3 penalty to damage" the same as "Vulnerability 3"?

No, it means if someone rolls for damage and gets a 4, for example, that damage is reduced by 3. 4-3=1.

Thanks for the prompt reply, LoganAura. Now that I know that, does that mean "penalty to attack" and "weakened" can be applied to the same creature? (If someone rolls a 6, weakened would make that 6/2=3, and the penalty to attack would make it 3-3=0).

I could use developer corroboration on this, but I think weakened always goes last, to minimize the use of stacking things like this. So you would have
((6-3)/2)=1.5 Mathfloor= 1 damage.
...I just typed Mathfloor without thinking. sorry about that. It means you always round down.

thematthew wrote:The problem, Dan, is that you aren't looking at a 1 in 12 chance (don't cal it 5 in 60 please, that's poor form. We reduce here)

5/60 is more accurate. 1/12 means that you can't trigger the special more than once with Critfisher, which is simply not the case. So, if you want to be mathematically accurate - you can't reduce.

thematthew wrote: of getting It's Over for free. In the Derpy's build you have Critfisher, It's Over, Daggerstorm, Call Lightning and Royal Command. So you are getting a 5 in 12 chance of grabbing at least 1 more d12 (and that's just you rolling poorly on daggerstorm by the by) which can keep the chain going on for longer. Add in Crushing Blow at level 2, and suddenly 4 of your 5 options regularly bring you 5+ d12s, which ensures this keeps going to crazy town.

Absolutely. This is probability 101. You calculate the expected value of everything and see if it's broken. So far, every Derpy's Lightning build I've seen (barring the insanity of builds that are no longer legal) - has managed a fair tradeoff. They often get a little above the curve in expected damage, but this is tempered by the fact that they fizzle on their critfisher half the time (and have a 20% chance when they do trigger their 12 of getting another critfisher). Optimized DL builds are often very powerful, but usually not SO powerful that they're leagues better than optimizing other builds - which have much more versatility and reliability.

Of course, I haven't run the numbers of ever DL build. It's very likely that with The Art of War expansion - new things like Daggerstorm push a DL build over the top. However, It's Over was reasonable even before nerfing in the DL build. It was nerfed once Art of War and similar made it too easy to build up pips to use it. So if there's a new culprit, it would be things like the +1 version of Critfisher or perhaps something like Daggerstorm.

Well, the +1 version of Critfisher only leads to potential insanity in Derpy's Lightning so that can't really be the issue. Similarly Daggerstorm, while good in Derpy's Lightning, already has it's own reasonable limiting factors.

If we're actually looking at a situation where It's Over! is only used in Derpy's Lightning builds for free then, isn't it clearly superior to Daggerstorm or anything else you could get? If both things have the same cost of "roll a nat 12 then roll the right number on a d5" then one of them is clearly way better than the other. You can make the case that It's Over! should be superior to other things in that case since it's the only place it can really be used but, that doesn't really work since it should be fair compared to other things in the only circumstance it comes up in.

If Derpy's Lightning requires a move like It's Over! to be balanced to other d12 crits then that's a problem with Derpy's Lightning. If it doesn't, then It's Over! is just an unfair advantage for an already really strong special.

Grey Pen wrote:I'm gonna have to de-rail the Derpy's Lightning discussion a bit in order to ask my own question...

The new Unicorn template is going to have Spellchild, right? If I use Changeling's Trickery to turn into a Unicorn, can I apply Spellchild to Changeling's Trickery? Or is it too munchkin-y and overpowered to do that?

Absolutely. Go for it.

Grey Pen wrote:If Derpy's Lightning requires a move like It's Over! to be balanced to other d12 crits then that's a problem with Derpy's Lightning. If it doesn't, then It's Over! is just an unfair advantage for an already really strong special.

This is not the case. It's okay for certain combinations of talents and builds to be more powerful than others. That's what allows the system to feel meaningful and deep to people that like building characters and trying to come up with cool combinations. We just don't want them to be *so* much more powerful that people feel bad if they're playing anything else - or it completely weights the team to one side. Last I checked, no Derpy's Lightning build was SO powerful that is needed to be dealt with - but with the inclusion of new talents in The Art of War that might have changed. Of course, It's Over was also nerfed after that too - so we're probably safe on that front.

It's also fine to have a combat talent that even only goes in a single build and is terrible in anything else. There's no reason to delete combat talents that some people like a lot just because most people don't actually use them.

EDIT - To clarify, we only delete combat talents in the system if...

1) They're so similar to another combat talent in cost and function that it's redundant to have both in the system.

2) They're way, way too powerful.

3) They're too confusing for good gameplay or it ruins everyone's fun when they're used.

The new It's Over does none of these things. And it creates a lot more fun for its fans and most normal players than it annoys the people that don't like it when their friends use it. And since it goes in so few builds while still being good, those people hardly have to worry about it anyway.

With us satisfied that 1 and 3 are not violated, the only way to kick it out of the system is to show 2 is the case. But it's been rebalanced so that it's not too powerful. It's possible that Critfisher's +1 and similar are too good as enablers of 12 crits in general, but people love living the dream of triggering It's Over off Derpy's Lightning and the triumphant shout when it's happened in playtesting has been awesome to see. So I really don't want to mess with it unless we're SURE it's broken - as it creates a lot of fun for a lot of players.

Now, we've gone way past the original simple question - so let's move this to another thread if you want to continue the discussion. But until it's demonstrated mathematically that the talent is too powerful - we're not going to worry about it.

I'm not entirely sure why you think that because you nerfed the move before that that caused it to be balanced. You just made it less broken. That doesn't actually automatically mean that you fixed it.

Yes, it's fine for not all builds to be perfectly equal. However it's a major difference in strength in almost all Derpy's Lightning builds that use the d12 crit effect if it has It's Over! or not. You can't really say that about any other combat talent for that large of a scope.

Edit: Basically what I've been arguing is that Case 2 is the issue here. But sure, let's stop discussing it since we're clearly not going anywhere.

Ramsus wrote:I'm not entirely sure why you think that because you nerfed the move before that that caused it to be balanced. You just made it less broken.
That doesn't actually automatically mean that you fixed it.

As I mentioned before though, we checked the Derpy's Lightning builds that used art of war before the nerf, and the expected damage was still fine. It's Over wasn't broken with Derpy's Lightning - it was broken by ramping up pips and and using it on turn 2 or 3 the hard way. So when it's already not broken before the nerf, now that there is a nerf it should be even *less* broken. =)

However, I'll say again we did all this math before The Art of War - which might well have turned the tables on the build's balance. If you want to work out the math to show that the new talents have pushed it into overpowered territory again, go for it. In that case though, it's probably the new talents that are the real problem.

Ramsus wrote:Yes, it's fine for not all builds to be perfectly equal. However it's a major difference in strength in almost all Derpy's Lightning builds that use the d12 crit effect if it has It's Over! or not. You can't really say that about any other combat talent for that large of a scope.

That's fine. Some combinations are cool together. They're built for that. It's Over is built for Derpy's Lightning. It's fine that players who want one usually take the other.

And now, we've definitely done a lot more than a simple question. If you want to go over the math (which could easily support the idea that DL is overpowered with new Art of War stuff) then that'd be great for another thread.

How many Racial points was it decided that Living Legends characters should have now? Was it 6, 7, or 8, in relation to Pony Tales' 8?

Each will have 8.

Ok, in that case I have a related question (I'm not doing the maths because that's not my strong point and I have no idea what formula you guys use to determine if things are balanced of not).

If It's Over! is there just for Derpy's Lightning, why aren't there moves specifically for the other Special Moves? What did Derpy's Lightning do to deserve this special treatment? It was a bribe wasn't it? How much would Healer's Grace need to shell out for a move made solely for it? Or is it just that Derpy's Lightning is your cousin's kid and gets special favors and Buccaneer's Blaze and Knight's Presence are just going to have to grin and bear it until they can move to a different branch?

*laughs* I'm happy to accept bribes, but the main reason is that Derpy's Lightning is unique enough to be able to design combat talents for. It offers a very different kind of playstyle and capability than other specials. Healer's Grace heals, it doesn' have synergy with anything other than traits that like healing (and it does combo well with those). Derpy's Lightning, however, can change the way you build your character to try to take advantage of it. It's a more interactive special.

If you want to try designing combat talents that are great with the other specials, go for it. If they're balanced, we'll definitely include them. =)

I'm 100% I could but, I actually don't think it's a good thing to do so. (Still, it might be an amusing way to waste some time when I next get bored.)

Hey, sorry if these have already been answered, but I have a couple questions:

1) Do Crescendo's individual 1dx+x damages each count as their own attack hitting a single target? E.g. could Boomstick be used in conjunction with the 1d12+5 to make that from "single target" to "single target and adjacent creatures"?
2) On Critfisher's second choice of ability, it seems like if you choose option B you get 3 pips then have to pay 2. Is this interpretation correct?

Well, for question 2, I sure hope so. It would make things pointlessly difficult if you had to pay the 2 pips before.

I just wanted to make absolutely certain that the two pip cost doesn't also nullify the 3 pip gain, is all.

Yeah, I know the answer's probably "of course it doesn't" but this is the kind of thing you want to check.

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:Hey, sorry if these have already been answered, but I have a couple questions:

1) Do Crescendo's individual 1dx+x damages each count as their own attack hitting a single target? E.g. could Boomstick be used in conjunction with the 1d12+5 to make that from "single target" to "single target and adjacent creatures"?
2) On Critfisher's second choice of ability, it seems like if you choose option B you get 3 pips then have to pay 2. Is this interpretation correct?

1) Nope, since it can attack more than one target you can't boomstick it.

2) Yep, you pay the costs before you get the effects - so the +3 happens first, then you can choose to pay 2 pips.

I figured those were both the answers I'd get, to be honest. Thanks for confirming for me!

Why is Rectrual Knife still:

old verion wrote:Ritual Knife - 2000 Gold
Weapon
Once per battle, you may use the following combat talent.

[0] Bloody Ritual - Standard Utility [1/Battle]
Choose one of the following;
A) Pay 2 hp. If you do, you may immediately use one of your [-1] combat talents as a free action without paying its pip cost.

B) Pay 4 hp. If you do, you may immediately use one of your [-2] combat talents as a free action without paying its pip cost.

C) Pay 6 hp. If you do, you may immediately use one of your [-3] combat talents as a free action without paying its pip cost.

You guys were ment to update it into the cooler version months ago from what I understand...

cool version wrote:Ritual Knife - 2500 Bits
Once per battle, you may use the following combat talent.

[0] Bloody Ritual - Free Utility [1/1 Battle]
Choose one of the following;
A) Pay 2 hp. If you do, immediately gain 1 pip
B) Pay 4 hp. If you do, immediately gain 2 pips
C) Pay 6 hp. If you do, immediately gain 3 pips

For all intents and purposes, it is the updated version. We posted in the errata thread saying that it was changed to that version a long time ago. Dan just hasn't gotten around to updating the goggle Doc but THAT is the current Ritual Knife.

For the new version, right?