Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:58 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:The double choice of, "choose 8 but then choose 5" seems painful. Why not just a set of 5 combat talents that you can take into battle as a single bundle instead of your normal 5? That might make it smoother (not to mention more reasonable in terms of the versatility it offers).

So "Choose between either 5 of these 8, or just these other 5"
I can see that

Xel Unknown Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:59 am

Then that'd cut it off from being comboed with Spellbook... Which would be lame.

A1C Bronymous Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:22 pm

Spellbook^, and also because some people still employ strategies that are more than 5 talents, using the minor swap and Open options to their full potential. And if you meant that it was just 2 sets of 5 talents to choose between, and then the other 3 that get left out, well then you're basically just saying "you now have 13 combat talent slots", and that's not what this is going for. I can try rewording it so that people know you are still limited to 5 without spellbook or whatever.

Multiclass- Trait
Select 8 different combat talents as a Secondary combat Talent Pool (9 if you have Dangerously Talented). Whenever you roll initiative, you may select either your Primary or Secondary Talent Pool to choose what talents you bring into battle.

Prestige Class- Trait
Prerequisite: Multiclass
Once per battle you may spend a minor action to switch to either your Primary or Secondary combat Talent Pool (whichever you did not bring into battle, reselecting your combat talents).

Still not great, but people will end up asking and then we just say "do it like this". You could also add an asterisk that says "you can still only bring in 5 talents from the talent pool you select, unless you have Spellbook, Dangerously talented, etc."

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:39 pm

You absolutely fixed the wording on Multiclass (prestige class is still iffy and is a harder phrasing issue to solve). However, that's too much versatility to get printed for a single combat trait - even without the extra slight gameplay headache. The fact that it can combo with other stuff to be even *more* value isn't an argument for it being printable.

I like the idea of players being able to bring in a different 5 talent specialty package with them into combat - in case their normal "Have 8, choose 5" isn't cutting it. I'm pretty sure we could print that.

And the decision of, "Do I want my specialty package? If yes, done selecting stuff entirely. If no, back to usual selection" is a quick, smooth thing to figure out. There aren't extra considerations, like trying to compare the various 5 talent selections of the new 8 and deciding if those are better than your normal. In fact, if you do want to use the specialty build, that will actually speed the combat selection process.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:47 pm

Multi-class could be an upgrade to your suggest Staric.

A1C Bronymous Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:59 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:You absolutely fixed the wording on Multiclass (prestige class is still iffy and is a harder phrasing issue to solve). However, that's too much versatility to get printed for a single combat trait - even without the extra slight gameplay headache. The fact that it can combo with other stuff to be even *more* value isn't an argument for it being printable.

Ok, I guess? It doesn't have to actually work with the other stuff, it just seems like something that should and would work together in a legitimate dual combat build scenario. Or we could say DT and Spellbook don't apply, that if he swaps out then he has to go in with a build that is lacking because its down an item and/or Trait slot. I don't think that should happen. MAYBE spellbook wouldn't apply if you use Prestige class, because of the way it's worded ("at the start of combat"), but maybe it would. And to be fair, if you limit those two, then you really have to rule that the second set cannot be used with any traits or items, period, instantly turning

And the decision of, "Do I want my specialty package? If yes, done selecting stuff entirely. If no, back to usual selection" is a quick, smooth thing to figure out. There aren't extra considerations, like trying to compare the various 5 talent selections of the new 8 and deciding if those are better than your normal. In fact, if you do want to use the specialty build, that will actually speed the combat selection process.

What aspect will it slow, exactly? It was a given that choosing between the two would slow it down, minimally, at the beginning, but everyone I've ever played with, barring the occasional rookie, has had their strategy planned out- they know which 5 to take in, and if they plan on using more than 5, they know when and how to make the swaps during combat. It's something that everyone does, and the point of swapping to the other build is to switch to another set strategy, not to fumble around with 8 random other talents and say "how can I make these fit together?" You have to be level 3 to get these. One would hope you know what you're doing by then, and if not, if it seems confusing, then like Kindulas said "it's not for me".

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:16 pm

Bronymous wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:You absolutely fixed the wording on Multiclass (prestige class is still iffy and is a harder phrasing issue to solve). However, that's too much versatility to get printed for a single combat trait - even without the extra slight gameplay headache. The fact that it can combo with other stuff to be even *more* value isn't an argument for it being printable.
Ok, I guess? It doesn't have to actually work with the other stuff, it just seems like something that should and would work together in a legitimate dual combat build scenario. Or we could say DT and Spellbook don't apply, that if he swaps out then he has to go in with a build that is lacking because its down an item and/or Trait slot. I don't think that should happen. MAYBE spellbook wouldn't apply if you use Prestige class, because of the way it's worded ("at the start of combat"), but maybe it would. And to be fair, if you limit those two, then you really have to rule that the second set cannot be used with any traits or items, period, instantly turning

And the decision of, "Do I want my specialty package? If yes, done selecting stuff entirely. If no, back to usual selection" is a quick, smooth thing to figure out. There aren't extra considerations, like trying to compare the various 5 talent selections of the new 8 and deciding if those are better than your normal. In fact, if you do want to use the specialty build, that will actually speed the combat selection process.
What aspect will it slow, exactly? It was a given that choosing between the two would slow it down, minimally, at the beginning, but everyone I've ever played with, barring the occasional rookie, has had their strategy planned out- they know which 5 to take in, and if they plan on using more than 5, they know when and how to make the swaps during combat. It's something that everyone does, and the point of swapping to the other build is to switch to another set strategy, not to fumble around with 8 random other talents and say "how can I make these fit together?" You have to be level 3 to get these. One would hope you know what you're doing by then, and if not, if it seems confusing, then like Kindulas said "it's not for me".

"Having your strategy planned out" runs counter to the point of this trait- being able to have multiple talents and select one based on the situation at hand. This would add a second layer of consideration at the start of a battle, which for many I imagine would slow things down. Plus, if it's a whole second trait to make it work that way... that's not powerful enough.

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:39 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:My 2 submissions for this week.

Mastery of Form
Prerequisite: A 'Form of the X Talent
When this talent is selected, you choose a specific Form of the X Talent. That Talent can now be used up to 3 times a day. This talent can be taken more than once, with each additional talent being applied to a different Form of the X talents.

Luna's Rangers:

I really like the idea of specializing in a form, using it more often (at will would be really cool if there was a good balance for that).

For the destiny, Cripple Shot is a huge problem. You can give it utility-based effects all you want, but hitting a creature with an arrow with a utility talent isn't going to happen. Also, we don't do static bonuses to entire skills. Other than that... hm... it seems weird to have a destiny about a weapon, but you've done a pretty good job coming up with utility options... not sure how destinyful they all are though, seems like it could just work as talents. Perhaps we could make some kind of ranger/woodsman destiny with some bow skills, your nightwatch idea, and... maybe some stuff to do with animal calling and or and animal companion? Hm... I want a straight Druid-destiny with animal-speak/call options and probably a companion destiny of their own, though, and those ideas would encroach on that territory. Perhaps we combine a few of the bow talents with some of the explorer ideas? Hm... just not sure how I feel about this.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:45 pm

I like the idea of salvaging the explorer ideas by tying it to a Ranger destiny.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:47 pm

Kindulas wrote:I really like the idea of specializing in a form, using it more often (at will would be really cool if there was a good balance for that).

Glad you like it. A problem for me is that shape-shifting is only once per day, able to use it more than once is great incentive to use it.

Kindulas wrote:For the destiny, Cripple Shot is a huge problem. You can give it utility-based effects all you want, but hitting a creature with an arrow with a utility talent isn't going to happen. Also, we don't do static bonuses to entire skills. Other than that... hm... it seems weird to have a destiny about a weapon, but you've done a pretty good job coming up with utility options... not sure how destinyful they all are though, seems like it could just work as talents. Perhaps we could make some kind of ranger/woodsman destiny with some bow skills, your nightwatch idea, and... maybe some stuff to do with animal calling and or and animal companion? Hm... I want a straight Druid-destiny with animal-speak/call options and probably a companion destiny of their own, though, and those ideas would encroach on that territory. Perhaps we combine a few of the bow talents with some of the explorer ideas? Hm... just not sure how I feel about this.

Just rule that Cripple Shot's has no effect in combat, due to the adrenaline jolt allowing them to ignore it. That's the only problem, isn't it?

Yeah, okay. The static bonuses can be dropped.

Actually, if we are going with a ranger/woodsman destiny, I think instead of doing animal calling/animal companion, it should be a a stealthy archer type. Fits with the name more, and its actually works. I mean, an archer is no good if he can't place himself into a position that requires his skills, and that usually comes in the form of stealth. Unless its a pitched battle ofc.

So, drop the static bonuses, and instead get one or two, stealth based talents. Not as powerful as the Unseen ofc, but your bow skills should make up for that.

A1C Bronymous Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:52 pm

Kindulas wrote:"Having your strategy planned out" runs counter to the point of this trait- being able to have multiple talents and select one based on the situation at hand. This would add a second layer of consideration at the start of a battle, which for many I imagine would slow things down. Plus, if it's a whole second trait to make it work that way... that's not powerful enough.

I know what the point of the trait is, I made it. The point is to have the option of changing between two different roles as the situation may call for: If you have 3 damage dealers and no healer, then 1 can shift to fill the gap. If you have an AoE build, against a single target, or a dedicated tank against several targets, then you can see that going in and choose to go with your second set, like healer or pip battery. The second trait allows you to choose, and then if what you picked isn't as effective as you thought, you can still change out. In order for this to be effective though, you need to have strategies planned out for both builds.

That is, it would behoove you to have something like this:

Turn 1> 4-All or nothing-9
Turn 2> 9-Call Lightning-0
Turn 3> 0-Phoenix Rising, Gather Energy, Lightning Bade, Wizards robes-0
Turn 4> 0- Unholy vengeance/Boomstick, Curaga- 7
Turn 5> 7-Gather Energy-8
Turn 6> 8-Flametongue, Blazing Blade, Blazing Blade-0
and so on

Knowing how you plan to use your talents, traits and items together, turn progression, etc.

So is it too versatile, or not powerful enough? You seem to have differing opinions.

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:56 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Just rule that Cripple Shot's has no effect in combat, due to the adrenaline jolt allowing them to ignore it. That's the only problem, isn't it?

Well, technically but it'll be the most awkward thing ever. I mean "That guy has an arrow in his leg, how is he not slowed?"
Okay, tabletop rules argument but an arrow in the arm? No damage penalties or anything? It's... it'd be weird, and it isn't even particularly useful anyway.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:00 pm

Just a random idea here, but would it hurt if Prestiage Class also gives you up to 4 PiP's if your bellow it when you change or something?

Kindulas wrote:Well, technically but it'll be the most awkward thing ever. I mean "That guy has an arrow in his leg, how is he not slowed?"
Okay, tabletop rules argument but an arrow in the arm? No damage penalties or anything? It's... it'd be weird, and it isn't even particularly useful anyway.

Well... how about changes it to Binding/Freezing/Paralyzing Arrow? So instead of crippling it, its binds whatever it hits, to a certain size? Actually, a freezing arrow would probably be better, allowing you to freeze water and stuff.

Harmless freezing of course.

A1C Bronymous Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:10 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:[color=#3366ff][color=#3366ff]Just a random idea here, but would it hurt if Prestiage Class also gives you up to 4 PiP's if your bellow it when you change or something?

I thought about resetting the pip count, but I figured it would have been fine without. Whoever's using it just needs to plan ahead, or take the extra turn to get pips back if need be.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:17 pm

[color=#3366ff]

Bronymous wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:[color=#3366ff]Just a random idea here, but would it hurt if Prestiage Class also gives you up to 4 PiP's if your bellow it when you change or something?
I thought about resetting the pip count, but I figured it would have been fine without. Whoever's using it just needs to plan ahead, or take the extra turn to get pips back if need be.

Glad to see I'm not the only one to think about it.

Wonder what Kind will think.

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:31 pm

Well, I'm not a fan of things traits that only give versatility since there's no mechanical advantage, but if the second trait could theoretically get you 4 pips, it be a plausible boost I think.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:36 pm

Glad you like the suggestion as well Kind.

Also, I just had an idea for the Dangerous Talented trait. Maybe it should allow you to activate the lower level critical ability, whenever you activate your special move?

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:37 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Glad you like the suggestion as well Kind.

Also, I just had an idea for the Dangerous Talented trait. Maybe it should allow you to activate the lower level critical ability, whenever you activate your special move?

Do something less powerful if the situation calls for it... which it sometimes does. I don't see why not... though the talent still doesn't give you any mathematical advantage

Fury of the Tempest Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:41 pm

Kindulas wrote:Do something less powerful if the situation calls for it... which it sometimes does. I don't see why not... though the talent still doesn't give you any mathematical advantage

Actually, I was suggesting you activate both abilities at once.

That might be a bit too powerful through... maybe if it was just limited to the 8 ability.

A1C Bronymous Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:45 pm

Kindulas wrote:Well, I'm not a fan of things traits that only give versatility since there's no mechanical advantage, but if the second trait could theoretically get you 4 pips, it be a plausible boost I think.

It could. I don't think it should, though. Just because there should be some penalty incurred to having to switch out.

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:46 pm

It also puts us into the territory of balancing something based on crits...

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:46 pm

Bronymous wrote:
Kindulas wrote:Well, I'm not a fan of things traits that only give versatility since there's no mechanical advantage, but if the second trait could theoretically get you 4 pips, it be a plausible boost I think.
It could. I don't think it should, though. Just because there should be some penalty incurred to having to switch out.

The penalty of having an entire trait slot dedicated to versatility?

A1C Bronymous Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:50 pm

If you think that's enough, then fine. I personally liked the idea of the player having to think tactically when it came to switching- "Do I have the pips I need to play the other build effectively? If not, and I have to take the extra turn to build a bit, do I keep my current set for now to do so, or can I do it adequately after switching out?"

And then if it does reset, you have to consider if they have MORE than 4 pips- does it still reset to 4, or do they keep the excess?

**Kindulas** Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:58 pm

Bronymous wrote:If you think that's enough, then fine. I personally liked the idea of the player having to think tactically when it came to switching- "Do I have the pips I need to play the other build effectively? If not, and I have to take the extra turn to build a bit, do I keep my current set for now to do so, or can I do it adequately after switching out?"

And then if it does reset, you have to consider if they have MORE than 4 pips- does it still reset to 4, or do they keep the excess?

Be too powerful if they kept the excess, I like the idea of a reset more. Still, I get your point about possibly not having the pips to run the other build - though at the same time, imagine a pip-battery on one side and a nukes and such on the other... naw, that wouldn't be a problem really. Still, perhaps there's another way to add the proper power boost...

A1C Bronymous Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:01 pm

Allow things like Spellbook and Dangerously Talented to affect the second build. Dan seemed to think it was already too good without the added ability to expand the swapped build, so if it's actually underpowered, then that could be a decent enough boost.

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