Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Zarhon Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:58 am

Kindulas wrote:Pheromones... I'm not sure what to think really. I do harken to my alter emotions idea. Some of them are a problem, but I wouldn't say it's unworkable necessarily. It's an odd one, but as a general thing altering other people's emotional states doesn't sound inherently problematic

Hmm. Which of the "emotional changes" (or rather, which of the pheromone effects) would you say fit the bill then? Which of them don't seem problematic in themselves?

The initial pheromone ruling could indeed be made to be something akin to psionics for simplicity, although the option of "contaminants" was intentional, as a unique thing to the racial, and something that keeps it from being a clone of the other racials like terrify.

Perhaps it could work as an upgrade? The original pheromones work as something akin to psionics, but can then be upgraded with an upgrade racial (that has the other as prerequisite, of course) that makes them work as material/physical contaminants (which you can manipulate or spread), in addition to your (limited) psionics?

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:07 am

It's not so much making it with Psionics in mind, as it is something that could easily be flavored either/or. Contaminants is pretty cool, but a simple area burst would be easier to say "it's a psionic blast" of "It's a release of pheromones."

One issue with them is the range in power level. Lovely pheremones and sadness are fairly situational (okay sadness has some good uses, but still). Psionic is both Detect thoughts and a mini Mindslaver, fear is a burst Terrify, Raging actually sounds terrifyingly useful to screw with people... it seems hard to know what kind of a power level these things are all on

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:22 am

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Because let's say there's a theoretical [-1] Free Attack in the future that deals 1 damage or something on a conjured weapon. This trait would deal infinite damage with that.

Conjured Weapons break a lot of the system's rules in terms of power for their cost - so support for them needs to be designed carefully and with a clear understanding of how it interacts with all the possibilities.
Weapon Efficiency
Select one conjured weapon, the PiP costs of Standard talents granted by that conjured weapon are reduced by one.

Problem solved. Makes sure something like Shield Valour doesn't becoming majorly powerful, but still buffs all conjured weapons quite a bit.

Yeah. That basically promises that you'll get 1 pip a turn, for a total of 5, unless you use Dual Weilder, but that's okay because you should get around 6 anyway... unless... hm, Gather Energy style effects would still be an issue...

Zarhon Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:31 am

Yeah, was worried about that. It's kind of hard to balance them out, or in some cases, think of a proper mechanic that deals with a particular emotion. I resorted to sort of applying drawbacks to using the more powerful ones, or making them unreliable / DM preventable.

- Lovely pheromones is there for flavor, fun/hilarity factor, and the occasional good use of it.
- Psionic pheromones is sort of a "hive mind" thing (think 'changeling queen'), which I applied a whole lot of unreliability, in exchange for good effects if it works. I think they could work by just splitting them up though, into mind-spying and mental-messages ones and a "control" one.
- Fear one is because it sort of makes sense to exploit fear as an emotion, and as a self-defense mechanism. I couldn't think of an alternate mechanic that would make it different from terrify, though. I did give it a drawback, initially, before I changed it to not having one.
- Rage pheromones I had the problem of them working almost identically to "maddening mockery", making it isolated from combat, and generally finding some justification for someone to take it (over maddening mockery).

I'm open to suggestions on how any of these could be reworked - the idea is there, it just needs some decent mechanic to fit it.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:08 am

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on these too. I know for one, the psionic thing doesn't feel like it fits as a part of this. All the others are altering someone's state of mind to a certain something based on the pheremone, and that one's this weird mindlink thing

Zarhon Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:15 am

Kindulas wrote:I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on these too. I know for one, the psionic thing doesn't feel like it fits as a part of this. All the others are altering someone's state of mind to a certain something based on the pheremone, and that one's this weird mindlink thing

Yeah, good point. It should more be akin to "caster has unique pheromones they always emit, that make the other (infecting) pheromones do something specific as a reaction (acting dormant otherwise - something like a two-stage poison)", or simply "infectious pheromones do stuff to who they infect", or both. Something akin to Poison Ivy, I suppose?

Fury of the Tempest Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:03 am

I'm gonna stay out of the pheromone discussion, little too complicated for me.

Kindulas wrote:Yeah. That basically promises that you'll get 1 pip a turn, for a total of 5, unless you use Dual Weilder, but that's okay because you should get around 6 anyway... unless... hm, Gather Energy style effects would still be an issue...

So, your okay with the idea in general? You said Gather Energy Style effects would be an issue, but really. When I suggested it for one of the weapon remakes, you flat out stated it would be a horrible idea.

A1C Bronymous Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:40 am

Zarhon wrote:Despair seems to be balanced by the fact it is impractical to properly pull off yourself with anything, or can almost never do it's full potential. It's also worth noting that the combos are pretty much guaranteed to take at least two standard actions, but not guaranteed to be usable (leaving a constant risk of a waste of spent pips, if the combo 'breaks' due to bad luck). How far can one go with the investment cost/risk before they decide it's not worth it over a simpler, direct method?

If I'm correct in assuming what you mean is that it takes one turn to inflict a save ends and another to use despair- look at the combo I keep using in Zilean's. Gather Energy solves that fantastically, as in the same amount of time you reach the same results with one extra pip, AND there is no time between inflicting the condition and hitting them with despair, so they can't save against it immediately and ruin the combo- barring, of course, if the enemy in question was designed with a trait that immediately throws off status effects as soon as it gets them (Mr Bones in the Abominable Antagonist game has such a trait).

ZamuelNow Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:52 pm

Kindulas wrote:I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on these too.

I have some thoughts but my brain is all over the place due to some other things. I'll try to consolidate my thoughts and get them typed up.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:08 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:I'm gonna stay out of the pheromone discussion, little too complicated for me.

Kindulas wrote:Yeah. That basically promises that you'll get 1 pip a turn, for a total of 5, unless you use Dual Weilder, but that's okay because you should get around 6 anyway... unless... hm, Gather Energy style effects would still be an issue...

So, your okay with the idea in general? You said Gather Energy Style effects would be an issue, but really. When I suggested it for one of the weapon remakes, you flat out stated it would be a horrible idea.

Of a seperate trait that reduces the pip cost of standard conjured weapon moves? I don't believe I had offered any opinion in the matter.

I rather want the idea to work, but there may yet be issues with it, and given it's sorta bland I'm not too concerned. Perhaps if we reformat it to a 1/Round, reduce the cost of a move instead

Fury of the Tempest Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:10 pm

Kindulas wrote:Of a separate trait that reduces the pip cost of standard conjured weapon moves? I don't believe I had offered any opinion in the matter.

I rather want the idea to work, but there may yet be issues with it, and given it's sorta bland I'm not too concerned. Perhaps if we reformat it to a 1/Round, reduce the cost of a move instead

I don't see how it would be too powerful... but... it does limit design space... so....

Is it okay that I make a trait which upgrades each standard conjured weapon? Although, doing so would go waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the suggestion limit I'm afraid...

I just think its unfair that Celestial Staff has a trait upgrading it, and the other's don't.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:08 pm

The celestial staff gets it because it's special. It's the super-awesome-trait-weapon. I think it makes perfect sense that it's the only one that gets it.
I don't think a huge list of weapon-specific traits is a good idea, either.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:27 pm

Kindulas wrote:The celestial staff gets it because it's special. It's the super-awesome-trait-weapon. I think it makes perfect sense that it's the only one that gets it.
I don't think a huge list of weapon-specific traits is a good idea, either.

So....

Your saying that the fact the the Celestial Staff is the super-awesome-trait weapon is not special by itself?

Because really. Being the only conjured weapon that is a trait and not a talent, already makes it special. It. Does. Not. Need. To. Be. Any. More. Special.

Not to mention it is horribly, HORRIBLY unfair and can make other party members feel out of sorts.

Examples:
Player A: I use my Flametongue to gain 3 PiP's and deal 1d10 damage to target enemy!
Player B: I use my Celestial Staff to gain 4 PiP's and deal 1d12 damage to said enemy!
Player A: Sad

Player A: I use my Granite Axe to Gain a PiP and deal 1d8 damage to target enemy plus the amount of temporary hitpoints I have!
Player B: I use my Celestial Staff to gain 2 PiP's and deal 2d8 damage to target enemy and remove a save ends from me and an ally!
Player A: Sad

That's just two examples, but really. Celestial Staff being the only conjured weapon to have an upgrade in unfair, unnecessary, encourages people to select over the other, obviously inferior conjured weapons and can leave other conjured weapon uses feeling overshadowed.

And to fix this, its talent must either be made generic, or each conjured weapon has a specific trait upgrading it, or the upgrade is removed.

**Paper Shadow** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:36 pm

Well Fury, you are paying an addition 2 traits (or 4000 Gold) to do those things over the cost of the other conjured weapons, so it's not too fair comparing the improved Celestial Staff which requires at least a Level 2 character spending a trait and 2000 Gold to that of the other conjured weapons of a character who has no traits or items. In addition, Celestial Staff doesn't have an innate trait and the moves that it has which do costs pips cost a lot, while the other weapons do have a trait and some really good and affordable [-] talents...

ZamuelNow Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:39 pm

As far as Pheromones, I think this should be priced as and balanced around 2 racial trait points and/or a single utility talent so it'll be easier to plan the balance point and easier to get multiple different pheromones if someone wants. Obviously, any of my suggestions can be ignored due to balance or Zarhon disliking the change proposals.
Retyped stuff and made it a little less wordy in parts.
Mentioned using a pheromone to simply negate other emotions. Wonder if it should be overtly changed to state one overrides another.
Removed Maddening Pheromones since it makes things incredibly unpredictable and thus hard to balance. If kept, you have a typo stating 1d6 when it's actually 1d8
Changed Psionic Pheromones to Control Pheromones. I think it fits your original goal but is less overtly powerful and feels more like a pheromone than just raw telepathy. (Speaking of which, I still think Detect Thoughts should be Read Thoughts but that's sorta outside the scope of this thread)
Changed Stinking Pheromones to Poisonous Pheromones. Nerfed it some but devs are probably better at exact numbers.
Sorta nerfed Nightmare Pheromones since it seemed crazy good as it was.
Changed Raging Pheromones from a trigger to a timer. Reduces raw control but also makes the user a viable target for the victim's rage. May potentially be able to remove the persuasion penalty due to the danger to yourself.

Pheromones - Racial:

Pheromones - 1/day [Created by Zarhon]
When you use this ability, you spread pheromones through the air in a radius up to 50 yards around you and blocked by solid objects. The pheromones linger in the air and on objects within their area of effect for 10 minutes. The pheromones can be blown or washed away by strong weather conditions or cleaned away by liquid/destructive effects (water, fire, acid, lightning...). Any creature that is contaminated with the pheromones must roll an endurance DC 25 to avoid being affected by them. The effects last for as long as they are unable to save against them, making a new endurance check every 5 minutes, with the DC reduced by 5 (stacking) for each failed save. You are immune to your own pheromones but can be affected by pheromones from others. When you take this talent, choose one of the pheromone effects below. Pheromones can also be used to simply negate an emotional state already in play, such as using Lovely Pheromones to calm someone's anger. You may take this ability multiple times, picking a different pheromone each time, and gaining an extra use per day:

Lovely Pheromones
Induces feelings of love in the affected creatures. You gain a +10 bonus to seduce such creatures or entice feelings of love towards other creatures. These feelings of love may be between two other creatures instead of towards yourself. They will do their best to protect any creature they are enamored with, going as far as to attack other creatures, if properly provoked.
Raging Pheromones
The effect of these pheromones lie dormant in a creature, slowly building until five minutes pass. The affected creatures then become hostile, induced to a blind rage. They will attempt to attack or assault a random creature in their vicinity. They snap out of their rage if their property, allies, or life would become dangerously threatened by their actions. Due to their aggravating nature, you suffer a -10 to persuasion checks whilst these pheromones linger on you.
Saddening Pheromones
Creatures affected by these pheromones are overcome by unexplained sadness and grief. They sit down, moping, and become unwilling to do anything, exerting minimal, if any, effort. They snap out of this if their lives, property, or allies become threatened.
Nightmare Pheromones
Creatures are overcome by intense fear, attempting to do their best to flee from you or an affected area. They will generally throw caution to the wind or may even attack you in desperation.
Poisonous Pheromones
Creatures affected by these pheromones become extremely nauseous and sick. All of their attributes are reduced by -2 for the duration. Most animals will avoid you and you suffer a -10 penalty to persuasion checks whilst these pheromones linger on you.
Control Pheromones
Whilst under the effects of these pheromones, creatures are in your thrall like a singular hivemind. Upon uttering a command of three words or less, all affected creatures will attempt to carry out your command to the best of their ability. Creatures are more likely to resist a command that would injure loved ones or go against their beliefs.
Natural Pheromones
These pheromones cause any creature affected by them to be treated as though under the effect of "Animal Magnetism", causing animals and other such creatures to treat them as friendly (they cannot command creatures without "Animal Speak", however). In addition, these pheromones attract a random species of animal to flock towards the contaminated location as if "Call Animal" was used.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:40 pm

Yeah, I mean in all fairness the celestial staff trait isn't even all that great, it'll get you 5 pips in 5 rounds, not 6. Your example is showing someone benefiting from two traits, against someone using a basic combat talent with no traits. Of course the guy with the staff is going to look superior in your example.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:46 pm

Paper Shadow wrote:Well Fury, you are paying an addition 2 traits (or 4000 Gold) to do those things over the cost of the other conjured weapons, so it's not too fair comparing the improved Celestial Staff which requires at least a Level 2 character spending a trait and 2000 Gold compared to that of the other conjured weapons of a character who has no traits or items. In addition, Celestial Staff doesn't have an innate trait and the moves that it has which do costs pips cost a lot, while the other weapons have really good and affordable ones...

Yes, it costs 2 Traits/4000 gold. That's no argument, as it still vastly overshadows all the other conjured weapons, but nothing they have will ever equal them.

Yes, Celestial Staff doesn't have an innate trait, but neither does Thunder Hammer or the Hurricane Blade, so those two are WAY overshadowing. The other traits? 1 resistance? 5 ongoing damage on the activation of a special move? Wow. They REALLY make up for the fact that my teamate is doing more with his conjured weapon's talents and getting more PiP's for them.

As for the [-] moves costing more? Maybe, but with the upgrade, that's hardly a fair trade. Use the +4, and the only ability you can't use is the ult, which is the same for other conjured weapons.

Kindulas wrote:Yeah, I mean in all fairness the celestial staff trait isn't even all that great, it'll get you 5 pips in 5 rounds, not 6. Your example is showing someone benefiting from two traits, against someone using a basic combat talent with no traits. Of course the guy with the staff is going to look superior in your example.

The thing is, the two traits are worthless compared to the staff and its upgrade.

I mean, the ONLY upgrade I can think of it getting Expert Duelist. Wow, your doing 1d10+3 damage for 3 PiPs now! Congratulations! 1d12 damage for 4 PiP's is STILL VASTLY superior!

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:49 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Paper Shadow wrote:Well Fury, you are paying an addition 2 traits (or 4000 Gold) to do those things over the cost of the other conjured weapons, so it's not too fair comparing the improved Celestial Staff which requires at least a Level 2 character spending a trait and 2000 Gold compared to that of the other conjured weapons of a character who has no traits or items. In addition, Celestial Staff doesn't have an innate trait and the moves that it has which do costs pips cost a lot, while the other weapons have really good and affordable ones...

Yes, it costs 2 Traits/4000 gold. That's no argument, as it still vastly overshadows all the other conjured weapons, but nothing they have will ever equal them.

I'd hope so. Because otherwise a normal combat talent would be just as powerful as something you spent 2 traits on. That would mean that something was either seriously overpowered or underpowered.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:51 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I'd hope so. Because otherwise a normal combat talent would be just as powerful as something you spent 2 traits on. That would mean that something was either seriously overpowered or underpowered.

So you are perfectly okay with the conjured weapon trait and its upgrade, vastly overshadowing every single other 2 trait/conjured weapon combinatiom? Because currently, it is. It is by a LONG SHOT.

Celestial Staff is powerful and special enough as it is, being a conjured weapon trait.

It does not need a specific upgrade.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:51 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Paper Shadow wrote:Well Fury, you are paying an addition 2 traits (or 4000 Gold) to do those things over the cost of the other conjured weapons, so it's not too fair comparing the improved Celestial Staff which requires at least a Level 2 character spending a trait and 2000 Gold compared to that of the other conjured weapons of a character who has no traits or items. In addition, Celestial Staff doesn't have an innate trait and the moves that it has which do costs pips cost a lot, while the other weapons have really good and affordable ones...

Yes, it costs 2 Traits/4000 gold. That's no argument, as it still vastly overshadows all the other conjured weapons, but nothing they have will ever equal them.

Yes, Celestial Staff doesn't have an innate trait, but neither does Thunder Hammer or the Hurricane Blade, so those two are WAY overshadowing. The other traits? 1 resistance? 5 ongoing damage on the activation of a special move? Wow. They REALLY make up for the fact that my teamate is doing more with his conjured weapon's talents and getting more PiP's for them.

As for the [-] moves costing more? Maybe, but with the upgrade, that's hardly a fair trade. Use the +4, and the only ability you can't use is the ult, which is the same for other conjured weapons.

Of course the innate traits don't make up for the loss, they're made to be minimally impactful. Celestial Staff was made to be the king of conjured weapons, of course it overshadows the others in being a conjured weapon, but the fact is that you get approximately the right value from the traits, and players using other conjured weapons make up that value in other ways with other traits.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:52 pm

Kindulas wrote:Of course the innate traits don't make up for the loss, they're made to be minimally impactful. Celestial Staff was made to be the king of conjured weapons, of course it overshadows the others in being a conjured weapon, but the fact is that you get approximately the right value from the traits, and players using other conjured weapons make up that value in other ways with other traits.

Problem is, they don't.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:54 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Kindulas wrote:Of course the innate traits don't make up for the loss, they're made to be minimally impactful. Celestial Staff was made to be the king of conjured weapons, of course it overshadows the others in being a conjured weapon, but the fact is that you get approximately the right value from the traits, and players using other conjured weapons make up that value in other ways with other traits.

Problem is, they don't.

Oh? How so? Each trait should get you ~6 pips in value, the CS upgrade will get you about 5, if you make sure to conjure it round 1 and don't use anything else. The fact that the trait forces you to lose value if you should dare do anything but use the Celestial Staff is something to note, too

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:59 pm

I *do* understand the "It's special enough" argument to an extent, however, and if it would actually make most conjured weapon builds feel inferior for using anything but the celestial staff with its upgrade, that's not something we want. But I'm not convinced it does.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:04 pm

I'd actually like to strengthen the celestial spear's identity as a special type of build by adding additional support to it that exists solely for its use - so it stands alone as a distinct build. This should give those types of characters added identity and make it easier to balance by being self-contained, similar to the conjurer's pet builds.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:23 pm

Kindulas wrote:Oh? How so? Each trait should get you ~6 pips in value, the CS upgrade will get you about 5, if you make sure to conjure it round 1 and don't use anything else. The fact that the trait forces you to lose value if you should dare do anything but use the Celestial Staff is something to note, too

Excluding the Shield of Valour, as its designed to defend, not to attack. The ONLY weapon which have traits that work directly for it weapon is are Flametongue and Death’s Scythe with the hex-traits, Sink Your Teeth In and Sense Weakness. Even then, they are situational. The Hex-Traits and Sink your teeth in only applies for two of Flametongue's talents, and its special move (not always going to happen). Death’s Scythe? The first Hex-Trait completely negates its own trait!

Dueliest doesn't work, as all the talents are a mix of single-target and AoE. Every other single trait is situational. Crushing Blow? Special move dependent. Sneak Attack? Vulnerability. Bloodlust? Enemy must be bloodied. Now You’re Making Me Angry.../Heart of the Underdog? You must be Bloodied.

Blood Weapon? The two traits it works worth doesn't make up for its weakness anyway. Hammer of Thunder? Nothing. Hurricane Blade? Nothing. Granite Axe? Vital Surge helps with one move, that's it. Who's The Tank? only works with its trait.

All in all. If you want to feel like a badass weapon master, unless your wielding the Celestial Staff, you'll always be outshone in the end.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I'd actually like to strengthen the celestial spear's identity as a special type of build by adding additional support to it that exists solely for its use - so it stands alone as a distinct build. This should give those types of characters added identity and make it easier to balance by being self-contained, similar to the conjurer's pet builds.

That... that just makes things worse, much, much worse.

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