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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:23 pm

So far,  whether or not Form of the Avatar is too powerful, it definitely seems that it *feels* too powerful to a lot of people - and that's not okay. We'll definitely revise it so that it doesn't feel broken. I think the major element that pushes it into OMGWTF territory is the time-extension in Avatar Unbroken. Without that, you'd have a maximum of 15 minutes of use a day in an Avatar-Focused build that spends huge resources on getting access to it 3x a day instead of 1 hour.  That should severely limit the amount of mischief you can get up to. Any thoughts on this?

There's a lot of specific points I'd like to respond to, because it seems a lot of people assume this talent is god-mode and somehow makes you immune to everything a DM can imagine while having the power to rip apart a city with your bear hands and destroy your enemies using non-combat abilities, but we obviously can't sit down with every player to ever look at the talent. I'd like to focus the discussion on how to make the talent still feel awesome without feeling broken. Let's get that down first.


@Zamuel - Sorry that my comment came off as condescending, it wasn't intended that way. Your post just seemed to be making the argument that, since the system doesn't have as much DM support as it could - it is isn't a big deal if this makes things harder. If that isn't what you meant, seems there's just a communication issue on both sides. Sorry about that.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:40 pm

Another quick thought. Aside from limiting the time to 5 minutes, what if the Form of the Avatar talents were reworked as a destiny?

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Paper Shadow on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:43 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Another quick thought. Aside from limiting the time to 5 minutes, what if the Form of the Avatar talents were reworked as a destiny?
Level 10 Shape Shifter wrote:Personal Form - 1/Day
Preparation time: 5 seconds.
When you acquire this talent select up to 10 utility talents, a size and an animal name. When you shapeshift into this form you gain the 10 utility talents selected, the size selected and lose access to all of your other utility and combat talents. This talent does not benefit from One Soul, Many Forms.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:45 pm

Indeed, there is the shapeshifter destiny which has a really powerful level 10 form. I'm talking about a destiny that would get something very much like (perhaps exactly) Form of the Avatar at level 4, options for enhancing the form (like The Avatar Unbroken and The Avatar Ascends, but probably not those exact talents) at level 7 and something even cooler at level 10. That would be meaningfully different from the shapeshifter destiny.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:05 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Another quick thought. Aside from limiting the time to 5 minutes, what if the Form of the Avatar talents were reworked as a destiny?
Avatar being reworked into a second Shapeshifter type of Destiny... Seems like a good way to just make it seem less "OMGWTF-SO-BROKEN" feelings that I know myself and others see when we look at that thing...
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:08 pm

Precisely. We have a really cool ability here that looks awesome. We can nerf it a lot to make it feel more reasonable (and certain aspects are definitely going to get changed) but it seems a great place to add a new destiny to the system for people that like changing shape and want more options than Shapeshifter. It'd also be really different from shapeshifter too (similar to the difference between Haste and The Rainbow Dash).

This feels great. We've got a cool idea that wasn't executed perfectly, so we're fixing it up thanks to everyone's feedback. At this rate, it might be in the right place before 24 hours have past. Thanks for all your great input everyone.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:12 pm

An avatar destiny would be awesome.
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Post  tygerburningbright on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:14 pm

I feel like I should note that it would almost certainly over shadow quite a few of the current destinies at level 4...

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:20 pm

Made some quick changes to Form of the Avatar so that no one ruins any DM's day while we're discussing how to change it.


Form of the Avatar - Magic
Preparation Time: 5 seconds
You enter the Form of the Avatar. In the Form of the Avatar, you gain the following:

  • Your attributes each become 10.
  • You gain the ability to fly and suffer no penalty to precision or brawn checks while flying.
  • You gain the racial traits Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn and Waterborn.
  • You may reroll any natural 1s you roll on skill checks.
While in the Form of the Avatar, you cannot use any of your other utility talents, combat talents or racial traits. You exit the Form of the Avatar after 5 minutes, or at any time earlier.


The Avatar Ascends
Prerequisite: Form of the Avatar
While in the Form of the Avatar you may mentally pick up or manipulate any number of objects within fifty feet of you with combined weights of 200 lbs. or less. 


The Avatar Unbroken
Prerequisite: Form of the Avatar
You are immune to mind-altering effects while in the Form of the Avatar. When you enter the Form of the Avatar, any mind-altering effects you were suffering from instantly end.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:29 pm

That... Might be a bit of a nerf too far... I do support the first bit of going form a 15 in stats to a 10... But Avatar Unbroken now is pointless in most campaigns... And Avatar Ascends... just seems like a weird add on.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:31 pm

Indeed. We're just erring on the side of caution at the moment and don't want any DMs to have to worry about things getting messed up while we rework the concept. Naturally, a destiny version would get to be more powerful than a utility talent version.

Besides, it's more fun to talk about the best way to buff something than the best way to nerf it.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  A1C Bronymous on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:34 pm

You know when i was first reading it, i thought Avatar was meant to be a destiny, and that the lvl an dlvl 10 features were really lacking. then I looked again and saw they were UTs.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:37 pm

Another advantage to making them destinies would be that people couldn't make a build that grabs all the avatar power-ups at level 1. We could make sure that they don't get the first ability till level 4 and the next powerups wouldn't come for three more levels after that. Should definitely limit possible DM headaches, especially in low level campaigns.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  A1C Bronymous on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:12 pm

Well to me, the equivalent of.. lord knows how many racial points that the base Form gives out should be no less than a level 7 destiny feature. Level 4 could and should allow for a more limited version- you choose one of the Xborns, you fly with penalties, and no crazy telekinesis.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:18 pm

Quick thing - Currently "The Avatar Ascends" needs a serious buff... But I don't really see the point of changing it by a lot since we'll almost certainly go the destiny direction in any case.

Now, need to get back to work sadly. Really want to talk about this more. Looking forward to seeing the discussion later.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Zarhon on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:31 pm

Yeah, the current "Avatar Ascends" is pretty pointless to take (Advanced Ponykinesis is pretty much better in every aspect and has the MP option to make it more "Avatar" levels of power - it would need more to justify a somewhat pointless 5-minute upgrade). Maybe if it was altered to be 1000 pounds, but that would be pushing it most likely (and granting you full benefits od adv. ponykinesis for practically free).

Since it's called "Avatar Ascends", maybe one could make it that they also get "Flying ace", to complement the flying benefits Avatar provides and make you gain air superiority? Or some other flying-based advantage (e.g. weathercrafting + 10 seconds flat)?

Or perhaps a unique upgrade to the x-born stuff - e.g. "elemental master" variants, applied for the X-borns racials you've got during Avatar mode?

I mean, if you're going to play an elemental master form of some sort and wish to upgrade it from "all around competency/reliability", might as well make it so you get control over those elemental aspects a bit more.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:46 pm

I think a Destiny would work better for this, though without upgrades I'd be fine with it setting Attributes to 10. I've got other Destiny comments but they'd be outside the scope of this thread.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:@Zamuel - Sorry that my comment came off as condescending, it wasn't intended that way. Your post just seemed to be making the argument that, since the system doesn't have as much DM support as it could - it is isn't a big deal if this makes things harder. If that isn't what you meant, seems there's just a communication issue on both sides. Sorry about that.
My view isn't that it isn't a big deal if something makes the system harder. Rather, I think it's comparable to other forms of enemy crowd control and that the better option is to add a section on all CC concepts to the GM guide and offer ideas of how to deal with it. Players have stunning options? Have different fights where some enemies are immune but it gets converted to damage, one where they lack protection but it's a large number of enemies, etc. For pip-destruction, point out that some enemies can have a variance of pip costs to their moves or perhaps make some enemies rather vulnerable but have some that grant each other their pips. Essentially, making it easier for the GM via educating them and making sure they understand their options. Balance changes can come down to doing nothing, removing a mechanic entirely, or altering it but it can be difficult to find which is best for a mechanic. I think it simply all rolls back to differences in GMing styles. I consider myself new but there's some things I catch on to easier than others. Other GMs may have other things they pick on easier. It feels best noted by the discussion about Elements/Virtues: Do you balance for the mean, mode, worst case, or best case scenario?
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Hayatecooper on Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:53 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Made some quick changes to Form of the Avatar so that no one ruins any DM's day while we're discussing how to change it.


Form of the Avatar - Magic
Preparation Time: 5 seconds
You enter the Form of the Avatar. In the Form of the Avatar, you gain the following:

  • Your attributes each become 10.
  • You gain the ability to fly and suffer no penalty to precision or brawn checks while flying.
  • You gain the racial traits Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn and Waterborn.
  • You may reroll any natural 1s you roll on skill checks.
While in the Form of the Avatar, you cannot use any of your other utility talents, combat talents or racial traits. You exit the Form of the Avatar after 5 minutes, or at any time earlier.


The Avatar Ascends
Prerequisite: Form of the Avatar
While in the Form of the Avatar you may mentally pick up or manipulate any number of objects within fifty feet of you with combined weights of 200 lbs. or less. 


The Avatar Unbroken
Prerequisite: Form of the Avatar
You are immune to mind-altering effects while in the Form of the Avatar. When you enter the Form of the Avatar, any mind-altering effects you were suffering from instantly end.
I can build this on lvl 1... really easily with better stuff. It needs a nerf, not disagreeing there and I love the idea of making it a destiny power. But I'd just take it out until you can rework it into something we can't pull off better at lvl 1 All the Xborns/Flight + CM + Utilities + Combat + Re-roll 1 virtue.
So yeah.. my two cents.
Take it out.. make it something we can't copy already and put it back in.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:15 pm

Sounds like people are interested in going the destiny route. When Kindulas gets back on, we'll try a pass at it from that direction. If anyone wants to toss out ideas for a Form of the Avatar destiny - love to see them. Feel free to post here.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:49 pm

Personally I think that the destiny idea should be mostly just the upgrades to this magic point form thing.... Or something like that.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Philadelphus on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:22 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Another quick thought. Aside from limiting the time to 5 minutes, what if the Form of the Avatar talents were reworked as a destiny?
That certainly seems like a fine idea. It already has a three-tier upgrade path after all. And I don't think we've had a destiny from the expansions yet, have we?

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Deathstorm50 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:35 pm

Hey folks, I normally lurk around these forums, but I figured I should try to contribute something here. I've never tried to build a Destiny before, or any feature of this system, but I thought I'd try, at least. With that said, This is an Avatar destiny that I thought would work in a game, maybe.

Avatar

Level 4Taste of Power
All Your life you’ve felt that you could so much more than your peers, and now some of that potential will manifest for a brief period. You gain the Form of the Avatar utility talent.
         
         Form of the Avatar – Magic
         Preparation Time: 5 seconds
         You can fly with no penalties, and You gain the racial talents Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn, and Waterborn.  You can’t use any of your normal racial, combat, and utility talents. Form of the Avatar ends after 30 minutes, or any time prior.

Level 7 – Meditative Lifestyle
You have spent much time meditating, reflecting, introspecting, or studying on your Avatar form, culminating on greater control over yourself and your environment while in the Form of the Avatar. No mind-altering affects can harm you while in the Form of the Avatar. Any mind-altering affects on you are dispelled by Form of the Avatar. You gain the Flying Ace utility talent and at-will Advanced Ponykinesis while in the Form of the Avatar.

Level 10 – Ascendant Powers
Be it through your meditation, research, or vigorous use, you have unlocked that which was with you from the start. Form of the Avatar is replaced by the Avatar State utility talent.

         Avatar State – Magic
         Preparation Time: 5 seconds
         All attributes are set to 10. You can fly with good maneuverability. You gain the racial talents Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn, and Waterborn. You can reroll any natural ones. You can’t use any of your normal racial, combat, and utility talents. The Avatar State ends after 30 minutes, or any time prior.

What do you think? I don't think too highly of it, but I thought I'd put it out, at least.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:38 pm

Deathstorm50 wrote:Hey folks, I normally lurk around these forums, but I figured I should try to contribute something here. I've never tried to build a Destiny before, or any feature of this system, but I thought I'd try, at least. With that said, This is an Avatar destiny that I thought would work in a game, maybe.

Avatar

Level 4Taste of Power
All Your life you’ve felt that you could so much more than your peers, and now some of that potential will manifest for a brief period. You gain the Form of the Avatar utility talent.
         
         Form of the Avatar – Magic
         Preparation Time: 5 seconds
         You can fly with no penalties, and You gain the racial talents Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn, and Waterborn.  You can’t use any of your normal racial, combat, and utility talents. Form of the Avatar ends after 30 minutes, or any time prior.

Level 7 – Meditative Lifestyle
You have spent much time meditating, reflecting, introspecting, or studying on your Avatar form, culminating on greater control over yourself and your environment while in the Form of the Avatar. No mind-altering affects can harm you while in the Form of the Avatar. Any mind-altering affects on you are dispelled by Form of the Avatar. You gain the Flying Ace utility talent and at-will Advanced Ponykinesis while in the Form of the Avatar.

Level 10 – Ascendant Powers
Be it through your meditation, research, or vigorous use, you have unlocked that which was with you from the start. Form of the Avatar is replaced by the Avatar State utility talent.

         Avatar State – Magic
         Preparation Time: 5 seconds
         All attributes are set to 10. You can fly with good maneuverability. You gain the racial talents Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn, and Waterborn. You can reroll any natural ones. You can’t use any of your normal racial, combat, and utility talents. The Avatar State ends after 30 minutes, or any time prior.

What do you think? I don't think too highly of it, but I thought I'd put it out, at least.
This seems like a good template to start from. Though I personally think that we should keep the Form of The Avatar as an Utility and build the desnity as basically just major upgrades for the talent... But that's just my opinion.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  LoganAura on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:40 pm

Hiya and welcome to the forums Death! (Saying that especially with the two spambots that just came on. Having a new, real human is a good bit of relief)

I don't know what the math of destinies are, but that does look good to me. The lv 10 is the awesome, powerful, akin to shapeshifter that we were mentioning.


Edit before posting: Limiting a destiny to a utility talent (Other than the kind of jokish Master of Madness destiny) is a bit odd.

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Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:41 pm

I recall there has been talk of making a Companion Desnity... And I personally see no reason not to have some cool denistnies that need a utility talent to be taken.
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