Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Fury of the Tempest Mon May 20, 2013 10:40 pm

Apart from Training, Cutie Marks and Applejack of All Trades, are we ever going to have ways of boosting our skills?

AProcrastinatingWriter Mon May 20, 2013 10:49 pm

There's the Dynamic Duo destiny, but that's situational...can't think of anything else at the moment.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon May 20, 2013 10:50 pm

We're planning to change it so instead of the DM secretly lowering the DC of skill checks as you level up - that players will get a skill check bonus as they level up to all their skills. Make things clearer and give players a more tangible view of their improvement. Wow do we have a lot of things on our to-do list. It just takes forever because doing these changes often takes a lot of conversation with the community after each change is proposed to make sure everyone is heard and we get everyone's great ideas on how to polish the mechanic (or if we should even have it at all).

Otherwise, we tend to avoid skill check boosts - because we like to make life easier for DMs (if people have a clear skill range, it's easier to set appropriate DCs) and put more exciting abilities in the players' hands. When I play in other systems, I find I want my skills so high that I pass up on a lot of other cool stuff. In LL, I don't have that pressure to choose between those options - which actually makes my character creation process feel a little better. We could be totally wrong on that though - as with everything.

Ramsus Mon May 20, 2013 11:02 pm

If all the skills are going up at the same rate, I think it's less complicated to just leave that for the GM to take into account.

As for making them go up in other ways, I've already time and again expressed my opinion on the detriments of having low skills ranges be too far from high skill ranges.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon May 20, 2013 11:05 pm

The only thing is, a lot of players don't realize the DM is actually lowering the DC and they can't see the changes happening in front of them. They don't *feel* like they're getting better at stuff even when repeatedly told this. I think players might honestly just like to add 2 to each attribute when they level up.

Any thoughts on this guys?

Ramsus Mon May 20, 2013 11:08 pm

Well, I think it'll make Destinies like Dragon Disciple seem a lot less cool, even if it isn't really changing anything.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon May 20, 2013 11:11 pm

Hmm... That actually *might* be a good thing, since so many people think Dragon Disciple is OP because they either don't know about the DM lowering DCs as you level up or forget about it.

Ramsus Mon May 20, 2013 11:15 pm

Actually I think people just pick Dragon Disciple because it's easy to re-flavor and has something everyone actually wants. This is actually a function of not having enough Destinies imo. That said, I do wish Dragon Disciple wasn't limited to Knowledge for seemingly no reason. There are already enough Knowledge related destinies.

AProcrastinatingWriter Mon May 20, 2013 11:16 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:The only thing is, a lot of players don't realize the DM is actually lowering the DC and they can't see the changes happening in front of them. They don't *feel* like they're getting better at stuff even when repeatedly told this. I think players might honestly just like to add 2 to each attribute when they level up.

Any thoughts on this guys?

I like the sound of this. If nothing else, I've always been uncertain as a GM as to exactly how much I should be lowering the DCs for tasks as the players level up. Leaving it in the hands of the system automates a (very mildly) tedious and (Very much) uncertain process.

Fury of the Tempest Mon May 20, 2013 11:24 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:that players will get a skill check bonus as they level up to all their skills. Make things clearer and give players a more tangible view of their improvement.

That sounds like a rather nice idea.

Hayatecooper Tue May 21, 2013 6:35 am

Skill bonuses on lvl ups? Didn't it say somewhere you guys didn't want to do that?

Anyway onto my question.
What happens to a player if they are in the middle of a wall and phase step runs out or have a hoof in someones face or something?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue May 21, 2013 7:06 am

1) We probably did for reasons of simplification. However, I'm rethinking this because a lot of players feel they don't improve as they level up. Plus, it's not terribly complicated to add 2 to every skill when you level up - and players will probably like doing it.

2) I'd rule that you're shunted out of the object immediately to the nearest non-solid space. Such as a space filled with air or water.

**Paper Shadow** Tue May 21, 2013 7:10 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:1) We probably did for reasons of simplification. However, I'm rethinking this because a lot of players feel they don't improve as they level up. Plus, it's not terribly complicated to add 2 to every skill when you level up - and players will probably like doing it.

I believe this is what was said...

Look Ma, No Hitpoints!
You’ll probably notice that there’s no passive, +5 HP boosts at these levels or bonuses to skills. We put a lot of thought into this, you can read all about it in the attached comment, and ultimately we decided to try something different. We decided to try to incorporate all our bonuses to combat stats and skills into our Traits, Talents, Destinies and even some Boons. You get your flavor and your mechanical bonuses at the same time, and you don’t have to keep track of twice as many smaller numbers.

Attached Comment:

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue May 21, 2013 7:19 am

Yep. And we still don't want to scale HP and damage and such - that's way more complicated and there's tons of combat support. Players also notice they are dealing more damage and surviving more blows due to traits and items.

However, the process of making skill checks - which are a lot of the game - stays the same for pretty much the entire length of the level-up process. And we're interested in changing that, so players feel like they're improving there too - as we don't want to add a bunch more conditional skill check bonus utility talents which would encourage a wider disparity between skill bonuses on min/maxers (which is harder to DM).

In short, we're rexamining what we said a long time ago in the light of player and DM response and our own experiences. I'm interested to hear what y'all think about it.

Hayatecooper Tue May 21, 2013 7:24 am

Oh well, I apologize for my mistake, I only half remembered and I should have checked.

So yeah, skill bonus's... should be interesting.
I don't mind the current system I have to admit, though mainly it's cause I'm lazy and the less work I have to do on level up the happier I am. On the other hand, having a more of a play difference between lvl 1 and lvl 10 could be interesting, I'd like to see it in practice.

Actually.
That would be an interesting idea, probably not doable, but interesting.
A lot of these rule changes are contested because members of the community aren't seeing them in practice. Is there anyway to do a sorta... I don't know... testing session where one of the developers and 3-6 members of the community play a game using the new rules in regulated conditions and get feedback on it? (I know this sorta happens to an extent but it could be interesting to watch developer and non-devlopers play and look at things real time. Again I don't know how doable that actually is.)

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue May 21, 2013 7:33 am

We definitely do that in all the campaigns we run (we all play in the system at least once a week) and it happens all the time - since we're ready to change anything based on the gaming results from everyone. The entire system is still changeable.

I'd love to do some skype sessions or something, but there are a few issues. First, we can't possibly do one for each tiny fix that we talk about. Second, we barely have time to keep up with the system as it is. Third, things like the skill check bonus are really simple to visualize and understand - general feedback should be enough. So you're right, it's probably not feasible.

Now, running a skype session for the main purpose of having an awesome time and the secondary purpose of reviewing some new ideas would be a whole other story. I'd love to do that sometime.

Fury of the Tempest Tue May 21, 2013 8:14 am

Wait, why isn't the skills levels increasing as levels increase not feasible?

Hayatecooper Tue May 21, 2013 8:19 am

No he ment my idea of testing stuff out in mini-sessions.

The Skill bonus thing is fine.

Fury of the Tempest Tue May 21, 2013 8:20 am

Oh right. My bad.

sunbeam Tue May 21, 2013 11:57 am

[-6] Never Stay Down - Interrupt Utility

Trigger - You fall unconscious
Effect - At the beginning of your next turn, if you are still alive, you regain 2d8 hit points and may take an extra standard action.

When you get this extra standard action, does that mean you get to take one standard action (because you were just unconscious and shouldn't be getting any actions), or this turn you can take two standard actions (because you're conscious and back in action, so you get a full turn, and one more standard action)?

sunbeam Tue May 21, 2013 2:15 pm

So if I use something like Roar of Challenge (or Jenkin's Chicken, which is very similar)
[-2] Roar of Challenge - Minor Utility
Target creature and all creatures adjacent to it are subjected to your “Roar of Challenge” until the end of your next turn. A creature subjected to your, “Roar of Challenge” deals half damage on attacks that do not include you as a target.

Then follow it up with Blast from the Past
[-3] Blast From The Past - Standard Utility
You cease to exist and can take no actions until the start of your next turn. While you do not exist, you cannot affect any creature and no creature can see or affect you in any way. At the start of your next turn, you reappear and deal 1d12 damage to target creature and all creatures adjacent to it.

Does my Roar of Challenge still affect the targets, since people can't target me, or can I no longer affect them?

Ramsus Tue May 21, 2013 2:38 pm

For your first question, I believe sunbeam that due to the way it's phrased that it would be the later option.

I think the answer to the second question is yes, since it doesn't actually force them to attack you or any other illegal action.

So.. yeah this isn't exactly a question and I know it's been discussed before but, I didn't really see anywhere to say it in the Destiny section and I didn't want to make a new thread just for this. I really think that Call to Adventure (Self Discovery's lvl 7) should give two level 4's. Here's my reasoning. 1) It's clearly inferior to other level 7's as is. 2) There are other level 7's that grant two things (Dragon Disciple and Shapeshifter for example). 3) It doesn't really matter if the level 10 should be "making up for it" because level 10's are practically a non-thing since even if you reach that level, you will play at that level for a rather short time, and you will have spent the vast majority of the game without it. 4) I don't even see anything crazy you could do with two level 4's. (The "craziest" options I see are putting your Hero Cave in a box (Master Detective + Inventor) or getting 4 Utilities (Self Discovery + Shape Shifter).

Ramsus Tue May 21, 2013 2:55 pm

[-7] Midnight’s Blade - Standard Utility
For the rest of the battle you may reroll all 1s on your d8s, d10s and d12s. Once per turn, you may have one of your attacks deal an extra 6 damage.

[-2] Chain Lightning - Standard Attack
Deal 1d10 to target creature. If you roll a 6 or higher you may copy this effect, choosing a new target for the copy.

How do these two interact? Does each copy of Chain Lightning get +6 damage or only one copy of it?

Edit: Similar question. How do Chain Lightning and Where It Hurts react? If you roll 6+ on the where It Hurts die does that count as a trigger to make a new copy? If so would it only make 1 copy even if both die roll 6+ or would you get a copy for each die? Does the Where It Hurts get copied as well since it's part of the attack?

Fury of the Tempest Tue May 21, 2013 3:26 pm

Ramsus wrote:So.. yeah this isn't exactly a question and I know it's been discussed before but, I didn't really see anywhere to say it in the Destiny section and I didn't want to make a new thread just for this. I really think that Call to Adventure (Self Discovery's lvl 7) should give two level 4's. Here's my reasoning. 1) It's clearly inferior to other level 7's as is. 2) There are other level 7's that grant two things (Dragon Disciple and Shapeshifter for example). 3) It doesn't really matter if the level 10 should be "making up for it" because level 10's are practically a non-thing since even if you reach that level, you will play at that level for a rather short time, and you will have spent the vast majority of the game without it. 4) I don't even see anything crazy you could do with two level 4's. (The "craziest" options I see are putting your Hero Cave in a box (Master Detective + Inventor) or getting 4 Utilities (Self Discovery + Shape Shifter).

I support this notion, and honestly the reasoning is rather sound to me.

Yeah I know that the level 4 and level feature 7 is meant to equal 2 utilities, so having one get 2 level 4 utilities would theoretically make it the strongest option, but as Ramus said, nothing's super-powerful going to come out of it, and there are other level 7's which would still be stronger.

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